Shifting the stance vs Turning the Waist

[LFJ]

This doesn't fall into that category. I am legit. I am aware of the controversy re: this production. If you believe it, so be it.

You mean you don't think he marked the film? He said so himself...

[Happy Tiger]

You mean you don't think he marked the film? He said so himself...

I can count maybe 6 or 7 points that aren't hard line WSL accepted method. That doesn't mean that they are deliberate gafs, rather shown a certain way to reveal the geometry of WC.

[wckf92]

WSL deliberately put mistakes in that production because people shouldn't be learning off videos. In particular, the footwork is wrong and there is no taan-da in the fighting system he taught. That's turning toward the attack and using two hands to defend against one. Fundamental errors/ bad habits.

Gee...wonder where he learned that from?

[wckf92]

It's the common practice in Chinese MA to "mark" materials provided for public consumption. That way we can clearly see who is a legit student of a given teacher, and who learned from videos, or only attended basic public seminars. You'll find this in any style throughout China. In many cases, if a teacher were to give out full information to the public they'd be given heat from their peers. When materials are "marked", only legit students will be able to recognize where.

I wonder if this sort of thing still goes on today? Do non-Chinese instructors do this too???

[LFJ]

I wonder if this sort of thing still goes on today? Do non-Chinese instructors do this too???

I don't know about non-Chinese instructors, but it's obviously still common, as video tutorial kinds of things are modern. The idea of not sharing full knowledge to outsiders, or those unqualified (different folks have different stipulations for this), and especially not just openly to the public is very deeply rooted in Chinese MA culture. ...WSL was also Chinese...

[guy b.]

I don't know about non-Chinese instructors, but it's obviously still common, as video tutorial kinds of things are modern. The idea of not sharing full knowledge to outsiders, or those unqualified (different folks have different stipulations for this), and especially not just openly to the public is very deeply rooted in Chinese MA culture. ...WSL was also Chinese...

The problem comes when the lunatics are running the asylum and the guards don't care, as is the case with wing chun

[Happy Tiger]

I don't know about non-Chinese instructors, but it's obviously still common, as video tutorial kinds of things are modern. The idea of not sharing full knowledge to outsiders, or those unqualified (different folks have different stipulations for this), and especially not just openly to the public is very deeply rooted in Chinese MA culture. ...WSL was also Chinese...

There's a difference between not revealing all and showing fugazi. WSL was demoing beginning universal wing chun rather than specifically his own interpretations.

[Happy Tiger]

https://youtu.be/JGQLUm3wc0c

[Happy Tiger]

The images I used were to express Ideas relating to shifting and mechanics of tools. Which I think demo my points. Another thread might be "How Kung Fu Masters Obfuscate and Deceive by Sabotage and Hiding Technologies."

[Grumblegeezer]

I don't know about non-Chinese instructors, but it's obviously still common, as video tutorial kinds of things are modern. The idea of not sharing full knowledge to outsiders, or those unqualified (different folks have different stipulations for this), and especially not just openly to the public is very deeply rooted in Chinese MA culture. ...WSL was also Chinese...

OK, I accept that many Chinese sifu's hold back certain details and may "mark" movements and forms released to the public in books and videos. My old sifu, LT, often did this with his published materials. So on another forum when LFJ criticized certain movements in LT's 116 movement dummy form as shown in the 1981 Yip Chun/LT book, I immediately recognized that he was referring to one such "marked" section. So what? Those marked movements or "signatures" are details in forms and practice sequences, not fundamentals. Keeping a bit back is really fairly harmless. Tan-da, by contrast is a pretty basic movement.

If LFJ is correct, it makes WSL come across as being very deceptive and unreliable. Now maybe my old sifu had that reputation, but WSL? Say it isn't so!

[PalmStriker]

The images I used were to express Ideas relating to shifting and mechanics of tools. Which I think demo my points. Another thread might be "How Kung Fu Masters Obfuscate and Deceive by Sabotage and Hiding Technologies."

I've got that book. A good read. No Chinese TCMA Master in Yip Man's day would have said "Hey public", I'm open for business to teach you everything you ever wanted to know about my lineage style, no modifications and no holding back.

[PalmStriker]

The problem comes when the lunatics are running the asylum and the guards don't care, as is the case with wing chun

What guards? The Truth Police?

[LFJ]

If LFJ is correct, it makes WSL come across as being very deceptive and unreliable. Now maybe my old sifu had that reputation, but WSL? Say it isn't so!

I don't think so. If you are a legit student, you will learn properly. If you're trying to learn off a video, then you shouldn't have high expectations. One should only watch that for entertainment or a very shallow intro to WC.

What he showed isn't "wrong" by most WC lineages anyway. When invited to other sifus' schools to hold seminars, he often taught general ideas like that that didn't accord with his own approach but were basic and common enough already. At one such seminar in Europe, a legit student of his assisting said to him privately "hey, this isn't what you taught me". Then he told him he didn't want to embarrass the sifu in front of their students... A few minutes later he told his student he could teach them the "right" way. As a result, all the seminar attendees dug it and began studying under him afterward.

[Happy Tiger]

I don't think so. If you are a legit student, you will learn properly. If you're trying to learn off a video, then you shouldn't have high expectations. One should only watch that for entertainment or a very shallow intro to WC.

What he showed isn't "wrong" by most WC lineages anyway. When invited to other sifus' schools to hold seminars, he often taught general ideas like that that didn't accord with his own approach but were basic and common enough already. At one such seminar in Europe, a legit student of his assisting said to him privately "hey, this isn't what you taught me". Then he told him he didn't want to embarrass the sifu in front of their students... A few minutes later he told his student he could teach them the "right" way. As a result, all the seminar attendees dug it and began studying under him afterward.

I think I got my nose outa joint abit ,feeling you were implying I learned my VT from tapes and books.
Although I've never referred to myself as anything other than a student I am well trained formally in VT including direct instruction from sigong WSL.(1995) and Tsui Sheung Tin sigong (1998). I'm a permanent lifetime member of the VTAA.(Christmas day 1998) .I worked for over four years for GM Leung Tings sister at Kuen way martial art Supply having wonderfull opertunities for inside info on the Kung Fu scene and continue to train with all kinds of fighters always enjoying meeting new challenges. Definitely not home schooled at any rate.
I understand the points you are making but imo that's not what I have been pointing to in my presentation.

[LFJ]

I was not at all implying that. I was using "you" in the general sense of "one"... Except when you posted a picture apparently to refute that taan-da was not a part of WSL's approach to VT fighting.