Start stop in wing chun

[guy b.]

To elaborate on recent threads concerning good examples of wing chun compared to not so good examples I thought I would post some examples of one of the most common problems in wing chun clips available on youtube: this is the start stop nature of anything approaching free movement, be it drilling or examples of light sparring.

The reason why the clip of Jerry exchanging with the xing yi guy is good is that the movement is continuous (as real confrontations are). Start stopping as in the following clip is a very counter productive way to train. You can see it all the way through the different stages. All it trains is attacking against a paralysed opponent and becoming paralysed when attacked.

[PalmStriker]

Need to connect. Concentrate on a one and a two and a one and a two and a one and a two. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ8dLI1v0cE

[LFJ]

Do you have a proper Ving Tsun instructor? You have eyes but you do not see.

Michael Kurth is a known fighter in Germany and takes on people of various styles at his studio. Why don't you pull your Jerry-style continuous fighting on him and see which one of you ends up "paralysed"? lol

[guy b.]

Do you have a proper Ving Tsun instructor? You have eyes but you do not see.

Michael Kurth is a known fighter in Germany and takes on people of various styles at his studio. Why don't you pull your Jerry-style continuous fighting on him and see which one of you ends up "paralysed"? lol

I know who he is. The training clip is poor for the reasons mentioned, that's all.

Lots of good fighters do pointless and counter productive things in training. Lots of good fighters would be good fighters if they never bothered to train at all.

Stopping moving when you have been 'tagged' is unquestionably counter productive for both training partners. I have seen Jerry do this as well so he is not immune. It is a common wing chun problem.

[Sean66]

This type of training is a battle for superior position. When the training partner realizes that he has lost his position and has been "beat" in this sense, he stops and they start over. That's all it is. It's one stage in the progression of training toward free sparring. And Michael and his students do plenty of free sparring. With and without protection and with the knives and poles as well.

However, it is important during sparring to know when it is over. To realize when you've lost your position and have been hit with significant strikes. In full-contact sparring you know right away, but in light sparring and gor sau it can be tricky. Egos can get in the way and you can end up "forcing" techniques and creating bad habits by continuing to fight. There is a time for going all out and continuing to fight even if your losing. But it's not here in this type of very "technical" sparring shown in the clip.

[guy b.]

This type of training is a battle for superior position. When the training partner realizes that he has lost his position and has been "beat" in this sense, he stops and they start over. That's all it is. It's one stage in the progression of training toward free sparring. And Michael and his students do plenty of free sparring. With and without protection and with the knives and poles as well.

I have seen clips of free-er sparring and they do the same thing there, probably because they are training it in this sort of session and in everything else down to starting.

However, it is important during sparring to know when it is over. To realize when you've lost your position and have been hit with significant strikes. In full-contact sparring you know right away, but in light sparring and gor sau it can be tricky. Egos can get in the way and you can end up "forcing" techniques and creating bad habits by continuing to fight. There is a time for going all out and continuing to fight even if your losing. But it's not here in this type of very "technical" sparring shown in the clip.

Light sparring with this kind of paralysis and without movement and evasion of strikes is very dangerous. It teaches exactly the wrong way to behave when you are tagged by a shot. The best thing to do is to evade and counter at the appropriate speed and intensity, rather than using inapropriate strength or speed (i.e. cheating). In that way you are building skill and maintaining appropriate reactions for when pressure is on.

A lot of wing chun I see basically teaches people to hold their chins out and wait to be ko'd once their arms are passed. This is not a good way to train.

[guy b.]

From 4.30 in this clip they have gloves, taekwondo body shields and head gear on. They are still doing the stop start thing. Why?

Either the protection is not required or they are training hard contact with stop start. Neither option makes any sense.

[anerlich]

he reason why the clip of Jerry exchanging with the xing yi guy is good is that the movement is continuous (as real confrontations are).

Aaagh, no, not the friggin' Jerry clip again.

[M.Kurth]

You have really no idea about what is done and shown on the vid right?
(character of a sepecific exercise for e.g.)
In training you have to know when it makes sense to continue and when it's better to stop.
And if you think that Kai, the big one, does not really trying to attack continuesly, than you should have a try with him.
Regards
Michael

PS:
Testing and training is a different thing.

[LFJ]

Guy b. sounds like one of those annoying sparring partners that you have to just knockout for them to realize when they would have lost their head. I've dealt with the type before. Then they get p!ssy with you when you knock their teeth out.

[guy b.]

You have really no idea about what is done and shown on the vid right?
(character of a sepecific exercise for e.g.)
In training you have to know when it makes sense to continue and when it's better to stop.
And if you think that Kai, the big one, does not really trying to attack continuesly, than you should have a try with him.
Regards
Michael

PS:
Testing and training is a different thing.

You fight how you train. Since this characteristic persists through different levels of intensity I can only assume it carries over into fighting. Why would it not? They are training it specifically every time.

Wing chun has drills not related to fighting which are supposed to build punching reflexes, body connection and other attributes. I happen to think that these are useful. But as soon as you introduce free movement you need to move continuously because you are no longer building attributes in isolation. Stopping merely trains bad reactions for fighting.

There is no benefit in standing like a dummy while someone throws three pulled shots at your chin. This trains no realistic targetting and attack for the attacker, and no realistic defence for the defender. It would be better for both to continue at the reduced intensity of the exercise while honestly acknowledging that one got the upper hand.

[M.Kurth]

So if you are in a position where is absolutly clear that you are done you are continuing?
Really clever. LOL.
You fight like you train, yes, but your skills derive from various parts of training and you have to know how to use these parts in a proper way.

[guy b.]

So if you are in a position where is absolutly clear that you are done you are continuing?
Really clever. LOL.

It is never clear that you are done unless you are done. With good movement it is possible to escape from many situations. Training to freeze is a poor choice in this respect. Training to think "I am done" is suicidal.

In the clip shown people who are "done" leave their hands out and turn their face away as the oppoenent throws. This is really counter productive training.

Sensible training acknowledges getting tagged and even getting dominated but never stops the movement (at appropriate intensity) because movement doesn't stop in a fight until the fight is over.

You fight like you train, yes, but your skills derive from various parts of training and you have to know how to use these parts in a proper way.

Drilling in wing chun trains the reflex actions of the punch, the body mechanics, the stepping and other isolated parts. These drills should never ever be confused with fighting. Many wing chun groups do confuse these with fighting as I am sure you know, which is why many wing chun students seek arm contact and chase hands. Your guys are not doing this, but freezing in free movement is a very harmful thing for them to be training.

[LFJ]

@guy b.

In another thread you said you train full contact with bare knuckles.

Let's see your video combining full contact bareknuckle sparring with not stopping until it's over...

[guy b.]

@guy b.

In another thread you said you train full contact with bare knuckles.

Let's see your video combining full contact bareknuckle sparring with not stopping until it's over...

Sparring is timed. Dusing that time participants move naturally at the agreed intensity. Yes people get knocked down.