Bare knuckle

[Happy Tiger]

Kyokushin, yes and also Vale tudo when it was bare knuckle and no weight limits.
In neither did we TRAIN head shots bare knuckled.
Honestly, in over 35 years of MA training I have never TRAINED/SPARRED bare knuckle with head shots.
Have always used gloves OR protective face gear.
I don't see a value in training bear knuckle face shots.
Testing yes, but daily training? Nope.

I agree testing yes, daily trading? No. As a fighter, you really should wade in to take a hit once in a while Its good to know how touchy your own chin is.

[anerlich]

In both of those clips one or the other fighter has hands wrapped or wears light gloves. A technicality perhaps, but still ...

As I think I said on the other thread, I believe some bare handed training is beneficial. Much of the M Kurth video guy b lambasted is barehanded training. I personally don't think bare knuckle head shots are a good idea for pitcher or catcher. I guess guy b and I differ on that, as we do on the philosophy and costs of dental treatment. He's just going to have to live with that.

Guy B didn't advocate full power head shots on a daily basis. He did advocate working up to short doses of it, perhaps on some sort of periodization methodology or seasonal basis. I may have misquoted him here. Will I be sorry if he calls me out on that? Unlikely.

I think where most of us disagree with him is on his contention that the use of gloves and other similar equipment is necessarily a mortal sin and road to mediocrity. There are more than a few Wing Chun guys I know personally who have successfully dodged that particular bullet (if it is a bullet and not in fact a blank). Not to mention other stylists.

Just because a few guys fight bareknuckle on youtube does not mean it is the best or only way to train or spar. And nothing is shown about how they use or don't use protective gear in training. These clips show it is possible to have prearranged bareknuckle matches without anyone going to hospital. That isn't an argument that mimicking them is the only or even best way to go.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Did you train body shots bare knuckled? i.e. did you train for the reality of kyokushin competition?

Of course and I competed internationally too.

Who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots?

So, all this ranting about training bare knuckle and you are saying NOT to train bare knuckle with head shots in Wing Chun ???

[sanjuro_ronin]

In both of those clips one or the other fighter has hands wrapped or wears light gloves. A technicality perhaps, but still ...

As I think I said on the other thread, I believe some bare handed training is beneficial. Much of the M Kurth video guy b lambasted is barehanded training. I personally don't think bare knuckle head shots are a good idea for pitcher or catcher. I guess guy b and I differ on that, as we do on the philosophy and costs of dental treatment. He's just going to have to live with that.

Guy B didn't advocate full power head shots on a daily basis. He did advocate working up to short doses of it, perhaps on some sort of periodization methodology or seasonal basis. I may have misquoted him here. Will I be sorry if he calls me out on that? Unlikely.

I think where most of us disagree with him is on his contention that the use of gloves and other similar equipment is necessarily a mortal sin and road to mediocrity. There are more than a few Wing Chun guys I know personally who have successfully dodged that particular bullet (if it is a bullet and not in fact a blank). Not to mention other stylists.

Just because a few guys fight bareknuckle on youtube does not mean it is the best or only way to train or spar. And nothing is shown about how they use or don't use protective gear in training. These clips show it is possible to have prearranged bareknuckle matches without anyone going to hospital. That isn't an argument that mimicking them is the only or even best way to go.

Honestly, we have had the "train super hard core to be a real fighter" BS dismissed years ago and sure every so often it rares its uneducated ugly head BUT this is silly.

In the early years of MMA ( when it was vale tudo) there were many hard core bare knuckle fighters that fought and they fought VS guys that trained with protective gear and we all know what happened.

The reality is that why some bare knuckle testing is benefit to a MA, training bare knuckles on a regular basis is not.
What you end up with is too many injuries ( and time off because of it) and people instinctively "holding back".

Lets remember one thing also, there is NO HISTORY in WC ( or any other TCMA) of actually TRAINING full contact FIGHTING with bare knuckles.
If there is any, please show me.

[Frost]

Honestly, we have had the "train super hard core to be a real fighter" BS dismissed years ago and sure every so often it rares its uneducated ugly head BUT this is silly.

In the early years of MMA ( when it was vale tudo) there were many hard core bare knuckle fighters that fought and they fought VS guys that trained with protective gear and we all know what happened.

The reality is that why some bare knuckle testing is benefit to a MA, training bare knuckles on a regular basis is not.
What you end up with is too many injuries ( and time off because of it) and people instinctively "holding back".

Lets remember one thing also, there is NO HISTORY in WC ( or any other TCMA) of actually TRAINING full contact FIGHTING with bare knuckles.
If there is any, please show me.

What he said, if you spar without gloves only one of three things happens

1) People stop training at the club because risk isn’t worth reward
2) You cut out headshots because it hurts and is too dangerous, so you end up with unrealistic body shot only training
3) You become gun shy as people hold back as they don’t want to get hit hard in return so you end up with those slap happy sparring clips like jerrys and the vast majority of southern hand clips we see out there with unrealistic techniques and bad body positions

We have all seen over the years clips of 2 and 3 on this forum, we have yet to see a good clip of wing chun bare hand sparring which isn’t unrealistic,

I completed in a traditional chinese bare hand sparring comp back in the early 2000’s the training was all controlled and technique was lovely because no one wanted to get hurt going at it without gloves, come the national comp (which was meant to be controlled contact) all technique went out the window the first time I got smashed in the face with a bare hand punch at full power,
The irony was we were seniors of the main school in the country, we had been entered into the competition because the previous years no gloved sparring had in the words of out master not been technical enough, we were there to show the way,LMAO
What I learned was that sparring without gloves doesn’t prepare you for fighting without gloves, contact sparring prepares you for contact no matter what the context

[sanjuro_ronin]

We all have war stories about what happens when you train bare knuckle.
I have a few minor scars ( than goodness for the boxing back ground before I did Kyokushin) BUT I have vivid images in my mind of far worse.
One guy has his lower lip totally ripped open, you could see his teeth even though his mouth was closed. He needed some serious stitches of course.
Cut eyebrows, cheeks, all very common when bare knuckles hit faces with hard contact.
Busted noses are a given gloved or no gloves so...
But what I noticed the most was the chipped or broken teeth and the cuts ( faces and hands of course).
Also, the level of contact ended up being far less than when you use protective gear.
People just didn't hit that hard in training when they were bare handed.

Then I got into the Daidojuku and the "space helmet" and we thought, "great now we can go full contact and bare handed and NOT have our faces look like crap"
Of course the issue with those helmets is that they are freaking hard ( nothing a good conditioned hand can't take of course" BUT they tended to transfer impact in a weird way AND you ended up slugging unrealistically.

[Jimbo]

Who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots?

You did, in post #61 of the Ving Tsun Under Pressure thread.

[guy b.]

Of course and I competed internationally too.




So, all this ranting about training bare knuckle and you are saying NOT to train bare knuckle with head shots in Wing Chun ???

Read anerlichs post. It explains my position relatively well

[guy b.]

You did, in post #61 of the Ving Tsun Under Pressure thread.

You are lying. Quote me please

[guy b.]

We all have war stories about what happens when you train bare knuckle.
I have a few minor scars ( than goodness for the boxing back ground before I did Kyokushin) BUT I have vivid images in my mind of far worse.
One guy has his lower lip totally ripped open, you could see his teeth even though his mouth was closed. He needed some serious stitches of course.
Cut eyebrows, cheeks, all very common when bare knuckles hit faces with hard contact.
Busted noses are a given gloved or no gloves so...
But what I noticed the most was the chipped or broken teeth and the cuts ( faces and hands of course).
Also, the level of contact ended up being far less than when you use protective gear.
People just didn't hit that hard in training when they were bare handed.

Then I got into the Daidojuku and the "space helmet" and we thought, "great now we can go full contact and bare handed and NOT have our faces look like crap"
Of course the issue with those helmets is that they are freaking hard ( nothing a good conditioned hand can't take of course" BUT they tended to transfer impact in a weird way AND you ended up slugging unrealistically.

The helmets are worse than gloves for targetting problems and defence/movement problems. Also as you say they encourage very unrealistic puching and can be seriously bad for your health with regards to head trauma.

Level of unrestrained contact is less bare handed because if not you will break your hands. It is possible to throw hard if you throw accurately, but for that you need a different platform than what gloved sparring gives you. Interesting and good to know. Movement and targetting very different. Hitting style has to be different if you want to win.

[guy b.]

What he said, if you spar without gloves only one of three things happens

1) People stop training at the club because risk isn’t worth reward
2) You cut out headshots because it hurts and is too dangerous, so you end up with unrealistic body shot only training
3) You become gun shy as people hold back as they don’t want to get hit hard in return so you end up with those slap happy sparring clips like jerrys and the vast majority of southern hand clips we see out there with unrealistic techniques and bad body positions

What's realistic about throwing punches as if you are wearing gloves and immediately breaking your fragile glassy little hands on someone's head? That is the opposite of realistic and the opposite of useful training.

Ramping contact level without gloves is far more realistic in terms of the actual activity you are training for- i.e. fighting without gloves. Unless you plan to wear gloves 24/7. Specificity is important in athletic training. Fighting is no different.

What I learned was that sparring without gloves doesn’t prepare you for fighting without gloves, contact sparring prepares you for contact no matter what the context

It is the fault of nobody but you if you were too soft to ramp the level of contact appropriately. Training with gloves only teaches you to miss and have poor timing without gloves. It also virtually grarantees broken hands. Broken hands lose fights.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You are lying. Quote me please

Here you go:

08-11-2015, 12:34 PM #61 guy b. guy b. is offline
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Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
Let's see your bare handed training then. I'm interested in how hard you're getting punched in the face with bare knuckles...
Full contact

LFJ asked:

I'm interested in how hard you're getting punched in the face with bare knuckles...

You replied:

Full contact

[JPinAZ]

Correct. Glad someone is able to see reason
..........I disagree, because bare knuckle is intrinsically different to gloved and it pays to be familiar with it since it is what you will be doing in an actual fight. ?

Is this based on your personal experience or an assumption from what others do? how often do you train and spar without gloves at full contact?

What I see/hear is you posting clips of others and asking what others do, but what do you do? (cause you seem to bounce around a lot on that part)
If want people to 'see reason', and if you are sparring regularly without gloves as you imply (and apparently at full contact), it would only be reasonable to ask you to film your next training session and show what you mean vs. posting up clips or others and trying to go off of what everyone else does.... shouldn't be too difficult or unreasonable for you

Otherwise you're not really saying much imo

[guy b.]

Here you go:


LFJ asked:


You replied:

the quote Jimbo was responding to was this:

Who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots?

His answer (and your defense of it) are non sequiurs in relation to the question.

Contact level is full contact. Ok. How does this relate to the question of who suggested daily training bare knuckle face shots? It doesn't. In any way. There is zero mention of frequency of that intensity of training.

[guy b.]

Is this based on your personal experience or an assumption from what others do? how often do you train and spar without gloves at full contact?

It is based on personal experience and the experience of others I train with.

I spar without gloves at full contact as often as I can manage, which is about once per fortnight at the moment. I have done more and I have done less. Obviously I train reduced intensity much more frequently.