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Thread: Long and short range Tan Sao

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Unfortunately, this 'technique' has little-to-nothing to do with WC's tan sau concept.
    The WC Tan Shou is quite unique. It doesn't exist in may other CMA systems such as long fist, praying mantis, Baji, Taiji, XingYi, ... The Tan Shou by itself drew my interest into WC many years ago.

    To me, the concept of Tan Shou is to

    1. extend my left arm between my opponent's right arm and his head.
    2. extend my right arm between his left arm and his head.

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    If I can do

    - 1, I can separate his right arm away from his body.
    - 2, I can separate his left arm away from his body.

    If I can do both 1 and 2, I can "separate" both of his arms away from his body and "occupy his center".
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-22-2015 at 02:07 PM.
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  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by stonecrusher69 View Post
    How do you determine what is right and wrong? Is it wrong because you where told it is wrong or because your unfamiliar with a different point of view.

    If you where told it is wrong how do you know it's correct.
    Those are great questions.

    First - experiment with it and see.

    Second- Often that is the answer. You were told it is wrong and that may prevent you from looking further and one may spend years trying to make something that will not work for them, even if it is "right, work" . I could not fight on the outside. I did not have the eyes. I had to be inside. I ate jabs and straights all the time. I missed jabs all the time. I have an elbow I constantly crack through out the day from those missed jabs. One of the reason I say I was a lousy boxer. I could not "box" on the outside. Ali style was not in the cards I had in my hand. I got to the point I dropped the jab. I would stick it out and when it touched something it was unload time. I knew the jab was all but worthless for me with my glasses off. I lose my depth perception. I ditched a major cornerstone of boxing because it did not work for me in sport. I also squared up , some may say to much. It worked for me. I knew I was going to be hit, Nothing I could do very well to prevent that. But it gave me the advantage of more power in my left hand. I had more distance to generate speed. I always advanced and cut the ring and cornered. Some guys I never made that work on. Such is life.


    Third- have others made "wrong" work. If they have then you have proof that it can be done. Just because they made it work does not mean it will work for you specifically. You may have physical limitations that just make that unlikely.

    Anyway, I think what you are doing is great. Can someone come along and punch holes in it ? F--K YES. And they may be right but that does not mean you are also not right. How many different versions of WC exist ? I know Ting wrote a book on that. Anyone recall how many ? Are the all the same ? Do some differ so much it is like it is a completely different art? Yet, is it still wing chun, if it is not the same wing chun another practices?
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 09-22-2015 at 02:17 PM.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    To me, the concept of Tan Shou is to

    1. extend my left arm between my opponent's right arm and his head.
    2. extend my right arm between his left arm and his head.

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    If I can do

    - 1, I can separate his right arm away from his body.
    - 2, I can separate his left arm away from his body.

    If I can do both 1 and 2, I can "separate" both of his arms away from his body and "occupy his center".
    You need to re-think what the concept of tan means to you.

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Having never trained in WC, how can you speak for the art? And who said WC needs recreating or people 'closing doors and not sharing'? I sure don't see that being the case in the lineages I've been fortunate enough to study..
    I don't mean this to put you down, but maybe you could give some examples of what you mean in direct regards to your understanding WC's history and also how it stands today. While it's good to study and compare different arts, boxing has a totally different history and origin. IMO, it's best if you're going to point out shortcomings in the art of WC as you may see it today, maybe it would be best to give examples from a WC historical background as well



    Maybe you could share your thoughts on WC tan sao or the applications SC presented in his clip then?
    I am sorry, I did not see this post until just know. Was not avoiding your questions. I never said WC needs to be recreated. I replied to posts made about WC in another thread as regard to sport against other systems. One even admitted it fails. But I also pointed out that does not have to be the case and that there were those in WC that have done good to great against other arts. I also recommended going to those guy that have done so or bringing in a guy from another art if need be to help you figure out what in your art will work well in a sport capacity against other styles. I pointed out things I saw that were in fact very similar to boxing if you looked at those motions in another way. I may have recommend ditching stuff for that aspect. Certain things may have no place or real function there. I do not believe I said scrap the art.
    It was not meant to offend but for an outsider to maybe point out things you are missing right before your eyes. IT WORKS. Maybe you can not work it but others are working it. FOR SPORT ! And unless you are trying to main or kill the guy, what is it ?

    Yes, I think WC is very closed door even to the point of excluding different linages or instantly saying, that is wrong because we don't do that as in the case of this video. Not that you are instantly wrong in saying it is wrong. That is your belief. Not his. Now another guy in another thread said, WC does poorly sparing against other arts. I disagreed and I am not even in WC. That was his beliefs. If I can see that and show proof and I am not WC why can not all in the art. Why must that be believed by anyone in the art ? Either through bad experience or being told, he believed that. I never meant WC had to reinvent itself as a whole, simply find out why you are doing poorly there and fix it. Go to this or that guy, he has answers.

    Sorry if I got off on the wrong foot with you. Or if you felt I was trashing WC, I do not believe I ever made any post were I did so. I do tend to write, well, not " right". I suffer from dyslexia. It can really cause problems for not only myself but for others. I completely understand people being protective if they feel they are being wronged. Not my intent.

    Ps. I think me using " you" "me" "us" etc, sometimes makes people feel like I single them out. I probably use that stuff incorrectly. If I was singleing anyone out there would be no dount that is what I am doing. I might start off by say, GO F-uck yourself mot-erfuc-er. That was meant to illustrate and not directed at you, to be clear. Those are a few words and phrases and proper usages I have mastered and I bet better than anyone here!
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 09-22-2015 at 03:33 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    You need to re-think what the concept of tan means to you.


    At both 0.42 and 1.20, his right hand is so close to his opponent's face. In both cases, his right hand can strike on his opponent's face with very short distance. There is no need to use the other hand to punch. So the WC principle, "block and strike at the same time" can be achieved by using just one arm only. The "long Tan Shou" can do that job very well.

    To me, Tan Shou can be used for offense and not just to be used for defense.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-22-2015 at 04:01 PM.
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  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post


    At both 0.42 and 1.20, his right hand is so close to his opponent's face. In both cases, his right hand can strike on his opponent's face with very short distance. There is no need to use the other hand to punch. So the WC principle, "block and strike at the same time" can be achieved by using just one arm only. The "long Tan Shou" can do that job very well.

    To me, Tan Shou can be used for offense and not just to be used for defense.
    At least you gave your reasons why and SC can respond with a reason. I could add that if it is supposed to be so efficient and no wasted motions was eyes not sliced from outside to inside tan sou ? We all notice these things from our perspective. We can theorize to death. My non wing chun answer is he has gained some control over the guy with his tan sou, sounds like a trap to me, and he can sacrifice that to hit a potentially weak hit or keep control for the millisecondens it should take to really drive home a serious shot. Temple, side of jaw, corner of eye, side of neck or just crack the dude wherever you can.

    Hopefully he will enlighten us to his reasons.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    To me, Tan Shou can be used for offense and not just to be used for defense.
    Absolutely agree!!!!!

  8. #23
    There is also the likelihood on the second inside tan that being he was explaining that he did not " include" the punch with the left while tanning with the right ? Perhaps he expected people to get that part. He left the left out of the way to show the tan in isolation.

    But that outside tan if intended as a trap was good usage in my opinion. You got control, ideally at the elbow, the puncher his off balance, bang. His relative position could have been off to much to apply a simultaneous punch with that tan. He could be using "control" to regain position and to hold in place for the hit. The idea of maybe shuffling the tan up to hit may not be there as cleanly as hoped for. Do you still go for it ? Bail out ? Flow with it ? Just some thoughts.

  9. #24
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    Here is an example that your Tan Shou (bridge) has been changed into a punch.

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  10. #25

    Alan Orr

    I really no little of Orr but the more I see the more I like. I am not going to say he is doing it right for anyone else but holy **** he is doing what I see in there. And he found his hook in WC, He calls it a whipping punching. It looks like it goes straight out and snaps in at the last second. Like an inward elliptical. It appears that he is using the knuckles you would knock on a door with. Back on point, he is using Tan like a boxing guard. ( Maybe similar is a better word to avoid bias.) Like I saw in that video I posted on the elbow form or whatever it is. I saw that guy move through a range of motions, if that is valid to use during a strike why is it not to use as a guard or cover ? Why can one not stop along the motion? It is in WC.

    Anyway, his take on it. Some may be shocked, shake heads, laugh that ain't wing chun. Looks like Wing Chun to me.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOeFy36W8pw
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 09-22-2015 at 07:30 PM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post

    Anyway, his take on it. Some may be shocked, shake heads, laugh that ain't wing chun. Looks like Wing Chun to me.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOeFy36W8pw
    What Alan does has more visible WC in it than some of his fighters. And, I think if he were working bare handed -- without gloves, you would see more tans and paks. Of course, bare handed training with heavy contact isn't very practical for people who value their health! So gloves it is. Regardless, he is the best known WC man to coach fighters for the ring, and more importantly, he has had success. Admittedly, what he does is at one end of the WC spectrum, but it is absolutely WC in my book, and has made a huge contribution to the art.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    At least you gave your reasons why and SC can respond with a reason. I could add that if it is supposed to be so efficient and no wasted motions was eyes not sliced from outside to inside tan sou ? We all notice these things from our perspective. We can theorize to death. My non wing chun answer is he has gained some control over the guy with his tan sou, sounds like a trap to me, and he can sacrifice that to hit a potentially weak hit or keep control for the millisecondens it should take to really drive home a serious shot. Temple, side of jaw, corner of eye, side of neck or just crack the dude wherever you can.

    Hopefully he will enlighten us to his reasons.
    I'm demonstrating the basic use of long and short tan sao as a concept not so much as a particular technique. The idea in this video was to bridge,control the space then strike.
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  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    To me, Tan Shou can be used for offense and not just to be used for defense.
    1. extend my left arm between my opponent's right arm and his head.
    2. extend my right arm between his left arm and his head.
    How are you going to use tan for offense when it is between arm and head?

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    What Alan does has more visible WC in it than some of his fighters. And, I think if he were working bare handed -- without gloves, you would see more tans and paks. Of course, bare handed training with heavy contact isn't very practical for people who value their health! So gloves it is. Regardless, he is the best known WC man to coach fighters for the ring, and more importantly, he has had success. Admittedly, what he does is at one end of the WC spectrum, but it is absolutely WC in my book, and has made a huge contribution to the art.
    I believe what happens is while fighting things change. Picture perfect goes right out the window. Especially is used against another system. It is not that the WC is gone, it just looks different. Things get shorter. Arcs change. Etc. Against another WC guy then one will probably see what looks like ideal WC much more.

    I have read here WC is a concept art. Does that not mean, do not get hung up on what a technique looks like as long as the principle are there it will still work ? ie, it is still be WC? I think people get hung up on the end of the motion " picture" and if it does not look "right" than it must not be WC even if it worked? Clearly his WC training allowed him to score but because it looks off people are like," WTF was that? That's not WC."

    Now take tan sao and I have seen guys demo that against swings. I assume if you got your skeleton aligned properly it will work. Like hitting a wall. Problem is during the potential chaos of a fight, the odds you align properly go way down and you will be bearing that force with shoulder muscle. Not very strong and good chance your shoulder is toast. I posted a video once on the potential power a swing has. I think a cover is a better idea. Allen looks to be shortening his tan sao. So but he is keeping the principle of whatever else is needed in good tan sao to make it work. I think ducking is good too but that may not be in WC. I don't know.Just hit while ducking to ideally prevent/stop or weaken a counter to your duck. But if that's is not there period, and one want to keep it pure as possible, then do not do that.

    Anyway, thank you sir. Thanks for sharing everybody. Appreciated.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    How are you going to use tan for offense when it is between arm and head?
    You use "double Tan" (like 2 spears) to separate your opponent's arms from his head. After your arms are both inside of your opponent's arms, you can do many thing:

    - both palms strike on his ears.
    - forearm hit on the back of his head.
    - willow palm strike on his neck.
    - both thumbs on his eye sockets.
    - both thumbs into his nose.
    - both hands choke on his throat.
    - pull his head into your knee strike.
    - head lock.
    - ...

    The "double Tan" can help you to get there. How you may want to play with his exposed head will be all up to you.

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    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-23-2015 at 01:35 PM.
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