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Thread: The concerpt of cover in Wing Chun

  1. #1

    The concerpt of cover in Wing Chun

    I am not sure if it was here or else where . Someone had posted how boxers are great at blocking. I informed him that is not entirely true. We cover. We already know what is likely to be sent our way. The vast majority of boxers punch in standard combinations. Boxing those that do not, really makes you look bad. Me, I probably always looked bad anyway.

    But with the things I have been pressing for, answers really and why not if I think maybe one has not thought enough or looked at it from different angles or perspectives.
    Explored. See what you may be missing.

    So, it bothers me. WHY ? WHY? WHY? It drive me nuts!!!! Why not cover. So I Googles "wing chun covers" . This is what I found. Same as I learned in boxing.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Ec...covers&f=false

    Side note, drop down and look at the wonderful comic book illustrations. I assume Duncan approved these. Maybe not. But maybe he showed what he did to the guy that drew them. What do I see ? A freaking long as swing, in the form of a slap, assuming trail marks are at least in part documenting the event. Coming out of the sticks and into the city. Can not attacks from far away also be efficient ? Does it always have to be what is closest ? When the target that presents is open and the best and maybe the only attack you have to hit it is from a position and distance that that appears will take to long when looking at it from third person angles.

  2. #2
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    The word "cover" is too conservative IMO. When your opponent's

    - right hand punches at your head, you sent your left punch toward his right ear,
    - left hand punches at your head, you sent your right punch toward his left ear,

    your punch can interrupt your opponent's punch. If your opponent punches at you and you punch him back at the same time, your action is "interrupt" which is more than just "cover".

    Your opponent's attack triggers your attack. That's the true spirit of the CMA.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-23-2015 at 02:26 PM.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    I am not sure if it was here or else where . Someone had posted how boxers are great at blocking. I informed him that is not entirely true. We cover. We already know what is likely to be sent our way. The vast majority of boxers punch in standard combinations. Boxing those that do not, really makes you look bad. Me, I probably always looked bad anyway.

    But with the things I have been pressing for, answers really and why not if I think maybe one has not thought enough or looked at it from different angles or perspectives.
    Explored. See what you may be missing.

    So, it bothers me. WHY ? WHY? WHY? It drive me nuts!!!! Why not cover. So I Googles "wing chun covers" . This is what I found. Same as I learned in boxing.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Ec...covers&f=false

    Side note, drop down and look at the wonderful comic book illustrations. I assume Duncan approved these. Maybe not. But maybe he showed what he did to the guy that drew them. What do I see ? A freaking long as swing, in the form of a slap, assuming trail marks are at least in part documenting the event. Coming out of the sticks and into the city. Can not attacks from far away also be efficient ? Does it always have to be what is closest ? When the target that presents is open and the best and maybe the only attack you have to hit it is from a position and distance that that appears will take to long when looking at it from third person angles.
    Duncan's lineage is all about "covering". He may not be as well known as some of the other "famous" Yip Man students out there... but he is nonetheless very good at what he does by all accounts. No blocking, just cover the space, move in/crash in, and strike. KISS principle.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    Duncan's lineage is all about "covering". He may not be as well known as some of the other "famous" Yip Man students out there... but he is nonetheless very good at what he does by all accounts. No blocking, just cover the space, move in/crash in, and strike. KISS principle.
    First, thank you both.

    Second, I guess for some in WC ( again being used generally ) he may be violating certain rules to make it work for himself? Or he took what some may consider a lesser principle and made it a major one for himself.

    Now being your descripting is somewhat similar to how I boxed, I certainly can understand it may not be the ideal way for everyone. You are probably going to get hit a lot.
    In the ring. Elsewhere it may work better than you think, provided you can ideally attack first, barring that again, you are going to get hit, hopefully on the cover, yes, if there is a weapon involved not a great idea but I have never seen any great ideas when it is empty hands vs weapons. Although, I think Aikido has great ideas against normal attacks. Against a guy training in any system that trains knives, they are probably dead. Fact is even a untrained person with a knife , if they are intent on using it, is about the deadliest thing you could have to deal with. I would rather have a gun placed to my head. In range there are may more options to avoid being ****.

  5. #5
    I know nothing about Duncan but I just youtube him. A couple of clicks in the line ups and I came across this. I see this guy is using what I would call a cross guard. Other may refer to that as an armadillo guard. Archie Moore loved it. I have no idea what you may call that in WC. I also saw what I would call a universal guard. Hi-lo. And a few other things I would have another name for.

    Enjoy and I am certain some here know this usage- others may not. It just may have never been taught like this where you learn.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieds4cWXJss

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    The word "cover" is too conservative IMO. When your opponent's

    - right hand punches at your head, you sent your left punch toward his right ear,
    - left hand punches at your head, you sent your right punch toward his left ear,

    your punch can interrupt your opponent's punch. If your opponent punches at you and you punch him back at the same time, your action is "interrupt" which is more than just "cover".

    Your opponent's attack triggers your attack. That's the true spirit of the CMA.
    I apologize for not replying to this earlier. I was hoping someone else would have. What you are suggesting is really stop hitting. Gene would know all about this probably better than anyone else on this forum period! It is not cover ! What you are suggesting takes great skill in seeing, timing and initiation speed. I DO NOT HAVE THAT ! I am missing 2. So, useless for me to build around the idea not that I never, ever manage it. But with glasses off, forget about it !

    Even people with great eyes can not make it work well enough to if they do not have everything else physically needed to make it work. Some guys may not have what is needed to make certain concepts work period. All guys can learn to cover and fairly quickly and learn to fight out of it. Long ago guards used to be called attitudes. I once read a book by Hayes on ninjutsu were he talked about guards and the behavior associated with them. Sorry, back on point, you look that up if it seems important.

    Got to run.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    What you are suggesting takes great skill in seeing, timing and initiation speed.
    It can be as simple as shown the following clip. In this clip, he used "rhino guard". He can use "2 straight lines" to move in as I have described. The fight just can't be any simpler that that. Your opponent throws 1, 2 punches, you move in and ...

    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-24-2015 at 07:10 PM.
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  8. #8
    YKW, clever.

    I used to practice something similar. But it was a hit to face. Double palm and head buried between arms while moving in. Ive seen other guys do similar but the used one arm to wrap an arm and throw. I guess variations of the same idea. Or similar.

    Thanks. I understand what you were describing to me more accurately.

    I really got to stop signing in tonight. I have so much to do. My follow up would be to do it again and again until it was no longer there. Continues attack using the same **** thing over and over. Hopefully thats the end of it.
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 09-24-2015 at 07:38 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    First, thank you both.

    Second, I guess for some in WC ( again being used generally ) he may be violating certain rules to make it work for himself? Or he took what some may consider a lesser principle and made it a major one for himself.
    Violating certain rules? IMO I don't think he is. Others may think so (as you indicated) and that is their opinion. You'd really have to read the book and/or watch his video series to understand more on his idea of "covering" to understand better. From what little I know about boxing, I can see the similarities you hinted at. A boxer will "cover up" a vulnerable space on one side of his body or head while the other hand while the other is attacking... in anticipation of his opponents' potentially better counter-punching skill/timing etc.

    I do firmly believe that each WC/WT/VT person/lineage interprets & applies the theories in their own way. If it works for them in a given circumstance, good on them!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    Violating certain rules? IMO I don't think he is. Others may think so (as you indicated) and that is their opinion. You'd really have to read the book and/or watch his video series to understand more on his idea of "covering" to understand better. From what little I know about boxing, I can see the similarities you hinted at. A boxer will "cover up" a vulnerable space on one side of his body or head while the other hand while the other is attacking... in anticipation of his opponents' potentially better counter-punching skill/timing etc.

    I do firmly believe that each WC/WT/VT person/lineage interprets & applies the theories in their own way. If it works for them in a given circumstance, good on them!
    I don't know if he is or is not. Again, I can only relate to what I see based on my experience. I do believe that his ideas are going to probably work better in a fight situation. Gloves or no gloves. I also think that that ,what I call your guys main guard can work too. But maybe not for everyone or against all type. And with heavy gloves your are going to lose power on the lead hand because the distance may be so short. Torque the stance is one way to get some back.

    I was actually going to make a post last night for those that may read anything I write and post any videos to try and illustrate my case that I am not WC. Let me say that again. I am not WC. To make that clear for anyone that reads and believes , "oh, he found a better way." MAYBE NOT ! I also believe that Duncan is very aware and applies as many or all of the principles in WC even if the end picture looks different from another's WC. Do not take anything I wrote as fact for WC. Obviously you WC guys are going to be thinking, this guy ( me) is off his freaking rocker. It's cool. Again, everyone, WC or not. I can not teach or explain WC to anyone. I can only point fingers at similarities. Similar does not mean SAME ! Close. What I suggest may work but that does not mean it is WC no matter how closely I think things are.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    Duncan's lineage is all about "covering". He may not be as well known as some of the other "famous" Yip Man students out there... but he is nonetheless very good at what he does by all accounts. No blocking, just cover the space, move in/crash in, and strike. KISS principle.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Covering" is an application in Duncan's lingo-it is not a fundamental concept for all occasions imo

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "Covering" is an application in Duncan's lingo-it is not a fundamental concept for all occasions imo
    True.
    There's no such thing as a magic bullet for all occasions, regardless of fighting system or style.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    True.
    There's no such thing as a magic bullet for all occasions, regardless of fighting system or style.
    My main deal is how do you get guys functional fast. If many of the concepts revolve around ideas that take years to achieve then WC is not a fast and and easy system to learn. There probably is no such animal. But people read that. It is often advertised. Wing Chun fits all body types. Wing Chun is a fast system to functionality. Some say for self defense only. Yet, some guys use it to complete with and do great too so , obviously that is possible and the idea it is only self defense is not completely true. Yet we read that. Wing Chun is an art for everyone. We'll that can be said for all arts. WC is not alone when they say we can get you ready in a very short amount of time. Maybe 1 out of 20 that works for. What do the rest do? Here they are all learning to use it the same way yet it ends up only working that way for one guy. The others just are not making it work enough. Again, not a only WC phenomenon. As a consumer. One could say, I was promised this not only through advertising but perhaps verbally as well and it did not work ,then I find out it take say 5 years before you can do this, yet for many even after 5 years they can not make things work. Point being, BAIT and SWITCH ! People SUE any other product or service for doing that.

    Now, lets me take us back to that video that was posted of the WC guy that was basically a heavy bag for the CLF dude. We assume and maybe correctly, that he does not have much experience. BUT, thinking more on it could we not also assume he may have had a couple of years in the art? That he may have even been the best guy "sparring" wise in his school. Point is, he had to have some experience or it is highly doubtful he would have entered. He believed it would work as shown.

    Could it be that much of what many take as simple concepts require years to master and even then some will never be able to ever do it with enough regularity to justify continuing practice of say that concept for that technique. If so, and some kid shows up expecting to be taught to fight in a short amount of time and it don't deliver so he leaves. Maybe he goes someplace else or maybe he just decided Im buying a gun or carrying a knife.

    Going back to the WC fighter vs CLF or whatever. There is a good chance he had enough time in to make it work so why did it not work for him? We can say, he forgot to do this or that. Is that really his fault or the fault of the teacher? Was he prepaired wrongly for that situation? Was his training focused on things that either are unlikely to occur or require a level of ability that he just does not posses. See a coach would look at things differently. What are you strong at. What do you suck at. What stands a greater chance of working in a short time. What will only work after years in. Why is it this guy cant get this. I guess I have to figure out how to make it work so he can use it since he can not make certain things work like they should for him.

    You see when I read WC can work for everyone. Short , fat, big, small, etc. I do not see it as meaning carbon copies. Then the bigger guy always wins. Or the faster guy always wins. I take it to me, that we can make it fit you and make it work . Is that not conceptual thought? And is this really being done?

  14. #14
    To be clear I am not talking about creating Champions or the best ever. Goodluck with that if that is your idea. It is possible but it does not happen often. This and all are supposed to be everymans arts. Or they tend to be advertised that way. Can you make them functional for what they are likely to encounter? So, that " short period of time" What does that mean for you ? And can you deliver that to **** near anyone in that time frame. Recall the time frame most students leave you if you teach. Do they really have the tools they think they have ? What time frame is that in general ? 3 months? 6 months? Etc. Have you delivered on your promise ?

    No it will not work on everyone but it should work more times than not. And him walking out the door, are you sure he could put it work ? If you are teaching him something he can not work, is there a substitute way that he may be able to work? It sucks when you look at it in that light. How many make any of this their life? Or ever intended to? Or made a mistake in thought and change direction after the fact. If one could only hope for guys that will live and breath the art and have all the ideal physical and mental abilities than you are a lucky man. The rest may as well close up shop because that is not the norm. You guys get fighters walking through your door. The will always posses distinct advantages or the average person.. It is their nature. Can you provide a reliable service for those that art not ? Those that will walk. They are trusting you to. They believed enough in you to sign and pay. Are you honoring your end of the bargain? If you say 6 months then the person should be working the stuff against anything similar at the very least more times then not. And then there always seems to be one guy that man, he just sucks but he sticks around. I love those guys. I really do. I would love to see them successful. They got the mentality, they don't quit but other things don't seem to work out right for them. They look good but cant use it.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    My main deal is how do you get guys functional fast.
    Dude, those two terms you used are quite subjective. Hard to answer you on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    If many of the concepts revolve around ideas that take years to achieve then WC is not a fast and and easy system to learn. There probably is no such animal. But people read that. It is often advertised. Wing Chun fits all body types. Wing Chun is a fast system to functionality. Some say for self defense only. Yet, some guys use it to complete with and do great too so , obviously that is possible and the idea it is only self defense is not completely true. Yet we read that. Wing Chun is an art for everyone. We'll that can be said for all arts. WC is not alone when they say we can get you ready in a very short amount of time. Maybe 1 out of 20 that works for. What do the rest do? Here they are all learning to use it the same way yet it ends up only working that way for one guy. The others just are not making it work enough. Again, not a only WC phenomenon. As a consumer. One could say, I was promised this not only through advertising but perhaps verbally as well and it did not work ,then I find out it take say 5 years before you can do this, yet for many even after 5 years they can not make things work. Point being, BAIT and SWITCH ! People SUE any other product or service for doing that.
    It seems you are quite wound up about WC advertising and marketing. Don't know how to respond to this(?). I never saw or read any of the stuff you describe when I started learning WC. I guess it just never concerned me. I, nor anyone else, are responsible for others' perception of WC, how "functionally fast" it is learned, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    ...Maybe he goes someplace else...
    WC isn't for everyone. People/students come and go. Life moves on. It is very rare to find a fully dedicated student.

    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Going back to the WC fighter vs CLF or whatever. There is a good chance he had enough time in to make it work so why did it not work for him? Was his training focused on things that either are unlikely to occur...
    There are perhaps many many reasons why it did not work for him. Some people don't train WC for the 'aggressive' side of it... some are only after the 'health & fitness' aspects. And some, who think they are learning how to use WC may have an instructor who doesn't possess the skill to pass along what he knows. Still others may lack the proper training methodologies...

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