The concerpt of cover in Wing Chun

[wckf92]

Can you make them functional for what they are likely to encounter? So, that " short period of time" What does that mean for you ? And can you deliver that to **** near anyone in that time frame. Recall the time frame most students leave you if you teach. Do they really have the tools they think they have ? What time frame is that in general ? 3 months? 6 months? Etc. Have you delivered on your promise ?

For example: If I said to a student "I can make you "functional" in six months"... then I would. BUT, that means six months, training at least 3 classes a week minimum; putting in the road work outside of class; etc. MOST do not want or can't do that. MOST don't want to pay money to get beaten down and crushed class after class. The gauntlet isn't for everyone. Most just want to put on a cool looking kung fu uniform, do some forms, bow to someone, go home and watch yip man movies some more. Rinse and repeat.

[boxerbilly]

For example: If I said to a student "I can make you "functional" in six months"... then I would. BUT, that means six months, training at least 3 classes a week minimum; putting in the road work outside of class; etc. MOST do not want or can't do that. MOST don't want to pay money to get beaten down and crushed class after class. The gauntlet isn't for everyone. Most just want to put on a cool looking kung fu uniform, do some forms, bow to someone, go home and watch yip man movies some more. Rinse and repeat.

Well that is good to know you have faith that you could do so. And yes, the students willingness is needed. I am unclear if you meant that specifically for getting him ready for a contact competition or self defense I am certain if you can make a guy ready to fight in 6 then you should have no issues providing that against common attacks he may face in day to day life.

Example, Ed presented ideas for a hook punch. All sound in there own way. As he pointed out, according to him most are not WC. I suggested Ed find out if they really work. He does not need to post any videos of himself getting clocked which is bound to happen to us all. But to "know" is what I am suggesting, will it work for what I am intending to in as close to realistic as possible. Then, maybe he might wonder, I wonder if this WC idea may also work against it. He may find something I ( as in him)believed to work , will not work for him yet Robert it works for. Thee are many reason that could be and it probably has nothing to do with his time in art or understanding why it should work. He just may not be able to make some things work. There is no shame in that. He still knows how it should work and it may work very well for another. He can still teach it even if he can not pull it off personally. But, the great thing is he has to find what works for him most consistently. His pivot and punch may work perfectly for him. He still may get hit and pull it off. He needs to find out for himself. Maybe he already has ?

[JPinAZ]

It seems you are quite wound up about WC advertising and marketing. Don't know how to respond to this(?). I never saw or read any of the stuff you describe when I started learning WC. I guess it just never concerned me. I, nor anyone else, are responsible for others' perception of WC, how "functionally fast" it is learned, etc.

Good point, I've been thinking this same thing.

@boxerbilly - First, I think it's great you have taken such an interest in the art! But for someone that's never taken one class in the art, you seem to have drawn a lot of conclusions (misconceptions) of what WC 'is' or 'isn't', whether we're talking system, curriculum or advertising, marketing or whatever. And that's fine, but without any any actual experience in the system, your current judgments aren't really based on anything other than hear-say. Not a very fair way to form an opinion about something eh?

I don't mean this to be a d!ck, but are you even interested in actually learning the art at some point? Have you considered checking out some local schools/clubs in your area? I would think with someone that's showing as much interest in the art as you are lately, that that would be the best way to get the answers for all of your questions you have (ie. direct, first hand experience).
Or are you just championing your own personal 'Save the WC Crusade'?

[JPinAZ]

Well that is good to know you have faith that you could do so. And yes, the students willingness is needed. I am unclear if you meant that specifically for getting him ready for a contact competition or self defense I am certain if you can make a guy ready to fight in 6 then you should have no issues providing that against common attacks he may face in day to day life.

Example, Ed presented ideas for a hook punch. All sound in there own way. As he pointed out, according to him most are not WC. I suggested Ed find out if they really work. He does not need to post any videos of himself getting clocked which is bound to happen to us all. But to "know" is what I am suggesting, will it work for what I am intending to in as close to realistic as possible. Then, maybe he might wonder, I wonder if this WC idea may also work against it. He may find something I ( as in him)believed to work , will not work for him yet Robert it works for. Thee are many reason that could be and it probably has nothing to do with his time in art or understanding why it should work. He just may not be able to make some things work. There is no shame in that. He still knows how it should work and it may work very well for another. He can still teach it even if he can not pull it off personally. But, the great thing is he has to find what works for him most consistently. His pivot and punch may work perfectly for him. He still may get hit and pull it off. He needs to find out for himself. Maybe he already has ?

One would assume that if someone as set up an online WC University and is charging money for online WC self defense lessons to 'save WC' as he more-or-less puts is, he would have done exactly what you're suggesting and proven all of this to himself already. Personally, I'm up in the air on if he has or not given what he's presented in his hook defense clip. And I'm not saying he needs to post up clips proving he has.
But if someone hasn't tested what they are teaching/charging money for against resisting opponents trying to really land some good shots, it's all still just unproven theory.

[boxerbilly]

Good point, I've been thinking this same thing.

Boxerbilly, First, I think it's great you have taken such an interest in the art! But for someone that's never taken one class in the art, you seem to have drawn a lot of conclusions (misconceptions) of what WC 'is' or 'isn't', whether we're talking system, curriculum or advertising, marketing or whatever. And that's fine, but without any any actual experience in the system, your current judgments aren't really based on anything other than hear-say. Not a very fair way to form an opinion about something eh?

I don't mean this to be a d!ck, but are you even interested in actually learning the art at some point? Have you considered checking out some local schools/clubs in your area? I would think with someone that's showing as much interest in the art as you are lately, that that would be the best way to get the answers for all of your questions you have (ie. direct, first hand experience).
Or are you just championing your own personal 'Save the WC Crusade'?

LOL. It does not need saving remember? I go more by see-say. Youtube is a wonderful, eye opening experience at times. If the theories are sound they should hold up. They should work more than not. If someone asked me if a guy was standing in front of me and threw his hook what would I do. My answer is I am probably going to be hit. I am just not very good. But knowing that from having been hit enough. I can now hit first. But until I figured out man hands down sucks and generally the hands are down at kick off, I figured I can stop it or at least get out the way. I know there are those that could do it. Did I not train long enough? Did I train wrong for it? Or maybe it does not matter how much I trained for that I am going to get cracked more than not? What is the better option now for me? Don't find out the hard way. Anlerich is not the only one here with dental implants.

Would I learn it ? I do not know. Does it hold interest. Certainly.

[boxerbilly]

And something does not always need to be trained all out to provide valid workable skills. We did not train all out in wrestling all the time. But the methods worked more than not because you learn fairly fast what you do well and the coach also knows these things if you forget. I tend to believe grappling in general is picked up faster than anything thing else by most people. I was a good wrestler when I did it but I prefer not to go to the ground.

I also think the GJJ/BJJ guys found a formula that works consistently for almost everyone. They too learn fairly fast what the are good at and what does not work as well for them. I am not recommending anyone learn GJJ or whatever. But could one not find and follow a formula that produces more consistent success ? I bet the average GJJ kid in say highschool could handle himself good enough against most anyone at the school after 3-4 months. Because he found out what works for him. Those Brazillians really looked at what they had. Then figured out, dudes, this is all they really got when they are like this. Look, it is almost always easy to get someone to get like that. Know, if we do this, it nullifies this and they have no choice but to do this, when they do, we got them. Works more times than not. So say for self defense that was against guys likely to know very little. And if things go bad they usually can recover and turn it around.

But then they went and decided to find out if we can do this just as consistently against any art. And pretty much they did. Eventually guys figured things out to make it less likely in in a pure form in UFC. That's besides the point. The point is it that these guys figured a way to take beginners, even the ones that were not natural born fighter mentalities and create successful out comes across the board and consistently. Did they find a good model/idea/concept? A way to expedite to function **** near all that come through the door and if they leave in 3 months they can do things that work for them.

Sounds like a good thing to me. Can WC be made to work that quick ? If not, why not? Because it was never before done this way ?

[JPinAZ]

And something does not always need to be trained all out to provide valid workable skills.

If you want to prove to yourself 'yes, this works against a real, committed attack then yes, at some point it does. I'm talking something a lot more live than the punch and hold type attacks - that's only for basic level drilling of motion. And IMO 'taking Sifu's/coach's word for it' doesn't cut it either. If we don't prove it to ourselves realistically it's all fantasy & theory.

We did not train all out in wrestling all the time.

Great. But then, no one here said you have to train 'all out all the time' anyway. Thanks for sharing I guess? lol

There's a difference between realistic testing of applications and training 'all out all the time'. Again, if you don't test things out in a live setting with a resisting opponent at some point, you really have no way of knowing if it's going to work when you need it. Period.

But then they went and decided to find out if we can do this just as consistently against any art. And pretty much they did. Eventually guys figured things out to make it less likely in in a pure form in UFC. That's besides the point. The point is it that these guys figured a way to take beginners, even the ones that were not natural born fighter mentalities and create successful out comes across the board and consistently. Did they find a good model/idea/concept? A way to expedite to function **** near all that come through the door and if they leave in 3 months they can do things that work for them.

Sounds like they were realistically pressure testing it to see what works and what doesn't thru the whole process to me!

Sounds like a good thing to me. Can WC be made to work that quick ? If not, why not? Because it was never before done this way ?

What's the point in answering as I would suggest you not take my word for it. Instead of continuing to ask this question repeatedly, why not just take some classes from a good instructor and get the answer for yourself.

[boxerbilly]

If you want to prove to yourself 'yes, this works against a real, committed attack then yes, at some point it does. I'm talking something a lot more live than the punch and hold type attacks - that's only for basic level drilling of motion. And IMO 'taking Sifu's/coach's word for it' doesn't cut it either. If we don't prove it to ourselves realistically it's all fantasy & theory.



Great. But then, no one here said you have to train 'all out all the time' anyway. Thanks for sharing I guess? lol

There's a difference between realistic testing of applications and training 'all out all the time'. Again, if you don't test things out in a live setting with a resisting opponent at some point, you really have no way of knowing if it's going to work when you need it. Period.



Sounds like they were realistically pressure testing it to see what works and what doesn't thru the whole process to me!



What's the point in answering as I would suggest you not take my word for it. Instead of continuing to ask this question repeatedly, why not just take some classes from a good instructor and get the answer for yourself.

Sorry, I signed back on the write, I bet there are guys that can do as I wrote. Are doing just that. I'll add now, you may be doing that. But if the guy in the video has even a year in, they are not doing that there. Where else may that be similar ?

Again, maybe one day. In a word, function. My function, LOL.

[JPinAZ]

I go more by see-say. Youtube is a wonderful, eye opening experience at times.

Lol, if that's how the majority of people feel they can realistically learn and understand an art as sophisticated as WC, maybe WC is dying...

While it's great to watch clips and talk about arts that interest us, at some point most sensible people that show as much interest and concern for an art they never studied as you have, would actually go the next step and put in the time/work and finding the answers thru first-hand experience.

If the theories are sound they should hold up. They should work more than not.

That's a wonderful theory, and many people might agree - as do I. But not because I've talked about it online or watch a clip of someone else telling me about it but because they've put in the work to find out. Can you see the reoccurring theme here?
Question is, can you prove it?[I] Or are you even interested in finding out if it's true?
If not, all I can say is, well, that's a wonderful theory

Would I learn it ? I do not know. Does it hold interest. Certainly.

You do seem to enjoy talking about it enough! What part of the world do yo live? I'm sure there's some local WC guys that you could meet up with. While at times it's fun to discuss things, even one hour of face-to-face interaction will give a lot more answers than days of discussion here! Speaking of, I have to get to my class!

[boxerbilly]

There is one very good I believe.

[wckf92]

@boxerbilly

I must second what JPinAZ said... if you get a chance, try to find a good school (i.e. one that focuses on a s s - whoopin) and give it a go .

[boxerbilly]

@boxerbilly

I must second what JPinAZ said... if you get a chance, try to find a good school (i.e. one that focuses on a s s - whoopin) and give it a go .

History, Okay, I will write it again for the understanding of all. I hurt my neck and back significantly about 4 years ago. Maybe one day. There is a slight chance I am done!
Some may think after 4 years your done dude. Maybe. I try not to think about that and just keep try to get back to what one would consider, normal function.

[wckf92]

History, Okay, I will write it again for the understanding of all. I hurt my neck and back significantly about 4 years ago. Maybe one day. There is a slight chance I am done!
Some may think after 4 years your done dude. Maybe. I try not to think about that and just keep try to get back to what one would consider, normal function.

True enough! I recently sustained an injury myself. Sucks. Like you... trying to get back to 'normal'.
Thx man

[boxerbilly]

True enough! I recently sustained an injury myself. Sucks. Like you... trying to get back to 'normal'.
Thx man

Well I don't want anyone feeling sorry for me. Call me out. Call me names. Whatever. If you think I am wrong say so. Hopefully, I am giving ideas to explore if things are not going the way you hoped for. It ain't WC obviously. But I notice similar things and I got lucky finding Duncan. Clearly he is doing things different than I may but he is using that idea.

Or the idea if GJJ/BJJ can cut the learning curve maybe there is some that could do the same for WC ?

Just thoughts, take them or leave them. Explore or don't . No one has to do a **** thing different. Your choice.

[JPinAZ]

History, Okay, I will write it again for the understanding of all. I hurt my neck and back significantly about 4 years ago. Maybe one day. There is a slight chance I am done!
Some may think after 4 years your done dude. Maybe. I try not to think about that and just keep try to get back to what one would consider, normal function.

I hear ya about injuries. I injured my neck and back in a T-bone collision some years ago which limited my ability to do some things for a while. And, I almost cut off 3 fingers last year on a table saw - that slowed me down for a bit! lol
That aside, if ANY art is good for your ailments, it's WC. With it's upright stance, 50/50 weight distribution and power coming from the lower half thru your knees-hips-elbows it's one of the best fighting arts for those with limited mobility and issue similar to yours (since it's aim is to stay upright and move and use as little effort as possible)!