Iron Hand Against Grapplers

[wiz cool c]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown. Has this topic come up before? Again I guess it is hard to test this theory unless you used it for real, but unless you are trying to seriously injury the guy.It’s hard to test this theory out.

[Frost]

Im fairly sure the 1990s are calling and wants its thread back BUT on the off change you are being serious I will actually respond
SAID is the principle at work here
Unless you practise your iron hand from a sprawl position or from a bent over position as you are flying through the air it probably wont help that much other than making sure you don’t break your hand if you do happen to hit him, its not like a wrestler will shoot in and stop there allowing you to root then hit, he will blow right through you unless you are sprawling and striking from a position with the hips down, head up and leg back and your body on top of their head isn’t something most people practise

[wiz cool c]

what’s the problem this is a kung fu message board and I am staring a topic on kung fu, hard to understand? Can you keep the cornball remarks to yourself? How about that for starters. I don’t know about this topic being old, but that 90s thread is calling has been used to death. and do you really practice iron hand training at all? or are you assuming a grappler is the end all be all of everything, since it is what is currently fashionable. another question have you competed in judo,jujutsu or other grappling competitions before?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown. Has this topic come up before? Again I guess it is hard to test this theory unless you used it for real, but unless you are trying to seriously injury the guy.It’s hard to test this theory out.

Iron hand forging doesn't do anything for fighting ability.
It only conditions that hand for impact.
The only way it can be effective VS a trained grappler is by training to deal with a trained grappler.
If a fighter can, due to proper training, hit a grappler then his/her blows will be all the more effective with proper hand conditioning BUT if they can't hit a grappler PROPERLY then all the hand conditioning in the world will make no difference.
Of course this applies to anyone, not just a grappler.

[boxerbilly]

what’s the problem this is a kung fu message board and I am staring a topic on kung fu, hard to understand? Can you keep the cornball remarks to yourself? How about that for starters. I don’t know about this topic being old, but that 90s thread is calling has been used to death. and do you really practice iron hand training at all? or are you assuming a grappler is the end all be all of everything, since it is what is currently fashionable. another question have you competed in judo,jujutsu or other grappling competitions before?

That is a good question. Thanks. I don't know. But, we have plenty of examples where striking down on someone taking you down generally is not very effective. It very well could work. The possibility is there but the odds are low. It generally does not end it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is a good question. Thanks. I don't know. But, we have plenty of examples where striking down on someone taking you down generally is not very effective. It very well could work. The possibility is there but the odds are low. It generally does not end it.

Striking down isn't the issue.
The issue is that unless you train striking down on someone coming at you like a trained grappler does then it simply has very little chance of working.

[Jimbo]

As SR said, it would have to be tested against a trained wrestler, and not someone pretending to be a wrestler and trying to approximate how a real wrestler might shoot in. Similar to any time a question (or example) of how or whether (name the style or skill) would work against a (wrestler, boxer, BJJ guy, MT guy, CLF guy, etc.) is put forward. Not to mention in this case, you would also have to not be worried about or hesitant to hit him full-force if you had the opportunity to do so. Even if someone landed that one iron palm strike on the wrestler, there's no guarantee it would stop him or even slow him down. You'd still need leverage for it, which would be near impossible with him shooting in. There wouldn't be time for a second strike. There are too many variable factors, and the momentum is on his side.

Not a bad question, wiz cool c, but as you said, probably not really testable.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As SR said, it would have to be tested against a trained wrestler, and not someone pretending to be a wrestler and trying to approximate how a real wrestler might shoot in. Similar to any time a question (or example) of how or whether (name the style or skill) would work against a (wrestler, boxer, BJJ guy, MT guy, CLF guy, etc.) is put forward. Not to mention in this case, you would also have to not be worried about or hesitant to hit him full-force if you had the opportunity to do so. Even if someone landed that one iron palm strike on the wrestler, there's no guarantee it would stop him or even slow him down. You'd still need leverage for it, which would be near impossible with him shooting in. There wouldn't be time for a second strike. There are too many variable factors, and the momentum is on his side.

Not a bad question, wiz cool c, but as you said, probably not really testable.

Indeed.
I have not fought ( for real) any grappler since I started doing IH all those years ago BUT a few years ago me and some friends were fooling around ( all 3 of us have been doing MA for decades) with what I can do with my IH ( breaking bricks, slabs, silliness like that) and I remarked that, fighting wise it (breaking stuff) doesn't mean much at all since people move and hit back.
One of my buddies remembered he had an old motorcycle helmet and decided to put it on so I can test hitting a moving target.
being the idiots that were were ( beer and whatnot) I said,"sure, why not?".
Well, long story short, at one point he shot in, I countered, moved and got position and slammed and solid shot to the helmet.
It cracked and it rung his bell for sure.

That is as close as I have gotten to really hitting someone hard with IH under the context of this thread.

For whatever its worth.

[bawang]

lol @ defending takedown with horse stance

[mickey]

Greetings,

Whether you have Iron Palm or not, it is important to strike with speed and power, as well as knowing where to hit. Fighting experience is also necessary. Iron hand alone will do nothing by itself.

mickey

[MightyB]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown.

Probably yes, but not without some serious training.

The Insanely Underrated Takedown Defense of Anderson Silva
While not an elite wrestler by any means, Silva has developed a very functional and effective MMA wrestling game that has stalemated much more credentialed wrestlers. His game is based around a few key concepts:

Distance Control
Use of Angles
Wide Base

Here's something to consider: Many people who claim to be grapplers are pretty f***ing awful at grappling.

[wiz cool c]

Striking down isn't the issue.
The issue is that unless you train striking down on someone coming at you like a trained grappler does then it simply has very little chance of working.

this i agree with [unfortunately i don’t have many partners to practice with these days], and one way to do it would be to use those old karate style foam style head gear and some pretty soft gloves, as well as having your partner react properly understanding that you are both wearing protective gear and he is not taking the blunt force o the strike. i got to disagree with the[ iron hand training hands nothing to do with fighting], actually i got to say it is about the dumbest thing i have ever heard, that’s like saying thai boxers don’t drill their kicks into pads or bags for hours at a time for fighting. forging your hand to be extremely hard and be able to deliver it with intense power is used for fighting, or was created originally for this.

I think a major problem here is people are quick to throw away or lose faith in their system, and are quick to jump on a band wagon. for example the stances of kung fu are designed to create stability and resist takedowns, and these downward strike surely in some systems where designed to strike down on a charging guy shooting in at your waist or legs, in fact i vaguely remember a hung gar teacher explaining this to me long time ago.

now in this day and age everyone cross trains. i personally have competed in judo and jujutsu competitions before, also trained in sombo for some time. people are so quick to disregard their systems for what’s popular. reminds me of a story i heard about the cultural revolution, where one day they love and respected their teachers, and the next day they are spitting and ridiculing them when they were told they are of the old way.


the people doubting the effectiveness of their systems techniques may be training incorrectly or may need to dig deeper into their systems training methods. For example stand 40 minutes daily, train conditioning your body with traditional two man drills and iron body skills, these are what makes kung fu effective, not just forms with kick boxing.

[mickey]

Greetings,

wiz cool c,

If you are feeling so strong about this, find out for yourself. Just because sanjuro ronin had a particular experience does not mean that it will happen for you that way. Take the odyssey and get back to us with your findings. That will be the only way for you to really know.

mickey

[wiz cool c]

lol @ defending takedown with horse stance

why do you even bother doing kung fu if you think this way? not to mention you spend all your time on a kung fu a message board when instead you could be out dating or socializing like normal people your age, when you dont even believe in what you do. man why dont you just find a high bridge and jump off it already, you obviously hate your life [and kung fu is not helping.]

[wiz cool c]

Greetings,

wiz cool c,

If you are feeling so strong about this, find out for yourself. Just because sanjuro ronin had a particular experience does not mean that it will happen for you that way. Take the odyssey and get back to us with your findings. That will be the only way for you to really know.

mickey

maybe because i am 44 years old now and had reconstructive surgery on my knee in china without physical therapy after, so don’t need to risk crippling myself to prove to you I’m a tough guy, thanks for the suggestion though. as i mentioned i have competed in grappling tournaments before. i also truly believe the old school iron hand master were training in these methods to kill people or main someone for good, not sporting events