Iron Hand Against Grapplers

[wiz cool c]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown. Has this topic come up before? Again I guess it is hard to test this theory unless you used it for real, but unless you are trying to seriously injury the guy.It’s hard to test this theory out.

[Frost]

Im fairly sure the 1990s are calling and wants its thread back BUT on the off change you are being serious I will actually respond
SAID is the principle at work here
Unless you practise your iron hand from a sprawl position or from a bent over position as you are flying through the air it probably wont help that much other than making sure you don’t break your hand if you do happen to hit him, its not like a wrestler will shoot in and stop there allowing you to root then hit, he will blow right through you unless you are sprawling and striking from a position with the hips down, head up and leg back and your body on top of their head isn’t something most people practise

[wiz cool c]

what’s the problem this is a kung fu message board and I am staring a topic on kung fu, hard to understand? Can you keep the cornball remarks to yourself? How about that for starters. I don’t know about this topic being old, but that 90s thread is calling has been used to death. and do you really practice iron hand training at all? or are you assuming a grappler is the end all be all of everything, since it is what is currently fashionable. another question have you competed in judo,jujutsu or other grappling competitions before?

[boxerbilly]

what’s the problem this is a kung fu message board and I am staring a topic on kung fu, hard to understand? Can you keep the cornball remarks to yourself? How about that for starters. I don’t know about this topic being old, but that 90s thread is calling has been used to death. and do you really practice iron hand training at all? or are you assuming a grappler is the end all be all of everything, since it is what is currently fashionable. another question have you competed in judo,jujutsu or other grappling competitions before?

That is a good question. Thanks. I don't know. But, we have plenty of examples where striking down on someone taking you down generally is not very effective. It very well could work. The possibility is there but the odds are low. It generally does not end it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That is a good question. Thanks. I don't know. But, we have plenty of examples where striking down on someone taking you down generally is not very effective. It very well could work. The possibility is there but the odds are low. It generally does not end it.

Striking down isn't the issue.
The issue is that unless you train striking down on someone coming at you like a trained grappler does then it simply has very little chance of working.

[Jimbo]

As SR said, it would have to be tested against a trained wrestler, and not someone pretending to be a wrestler and trying to approximate how a real wrestler might shoot in. Similar to any time a question (or example) of how or whether (name the style or skill) would work against a (wrestler, boxer, BJJ guy, MT guy, CLF guy, etc.) is put forward. Not to mention in this case, you would also have to not be worried about or hesitant to hit him full-force if you had the opportunity to do so. Even if someone landed that one iron palm strike on the wrestler, there's no guarantee it would stop him or even slow him down. You'd still need leverage for it, which would be near impossible with him shooting in. There wouldn't be time for a second strike. There are too many variable factors, and the momentum is on his side.

Not a bad question, wiz cool c, but as you said, probably not really testable.

[wiz cool c]

Striking down isn't the issue.
The issue is that unless you train striking down on someone coming at you like a trained grappler does then it simply has very little chance of working.

this i agree with [unfortunately i don’t have many partners to practice with these days], and one way to do it would be to use those old karate style foam style head gear and some pretty soft gloves, as well as having your partner react properly understanding that you are both wearing protective gear and he is not taking the blunt force o the strike. i got to disagree with the[ iron hand training hands nothing to do with fighting], actually i got to say it is about the dumbest thing i have ever heard, that’s like saying thai boxers don’t drill their kicks into pads or bags for hours at a time for fighting. forging your hand to be extremely hard and be able to deliver it with intense power is used for fighting, or was created originally for this.

I think a major problem here is people are quick to throw away or lose faith in their system, and are quick to jump on a band wagon. for example the stances of kung fu are designed to create stability and resist takedowns, and these downward strike surely in some systems where designed to strike down on a charging guy shooting in at your waist or legs, in fact i vaguely remember a hung gar teacher explaining this to me long time ago.

now in this day and age everyone cross trains. i personally have competed in judo and jujutsu competitions before, also trained in sombo for some time. people are so quick to disregard their systems for what’s popular. reminds me of a story i heard about the cultural revolution, where one day they love and respected their teachers, and the next day they are spitting and ridiculing them when they were told they are of the old way.


the people doubting the effectiveness of their systems techniques may be training incorrectly or may need to dig deeper into their systems training methods. For example stand 40 minutes daily, train conditioning your body with traditional two man drills and iron body skills, these are what makes kung fu effective, not just forms with kick boxing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown. Has this topic come up before? Again I guess it is hard to test this theory unless you used it for real, but unless you are trying to seriously injury the guy.It’s hard to test this theory out.

Iron hand forging doesn't do anything for fighting ability.
It only conditions that hand for impact.
The only way it can be effective VS a trained grappler is by training to deal with a trained grappler.
If a fighter can, due to proper training, hit a grappler then his/her blows will be all the more effective with proper hand conditioning BUT if they can't hit a grappler PROPERLY then all the hand conditioning in the world will make no difference.
Of course this applies to anyone, not just a grappler.

[MightyB]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown.

Probably yes, but not without some serious training.

The Insanely Underrated Takedown Defense of Anderson Silva
While not an elite wrestler by any means, Silva has developed a very functional and effective MMA wrestling game that has stalemated much more credentialed wrestlers. His game is based around a few key concepts:

Distance Control
Use of Angles
Wide Base

Here's something to consider: Many people who claim to be grapplers are pretty f***ing awful at grappling.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown. Has this topic come up before? Again I guess it is hard to test this theory unless you used it for real, but unless you are trying to seriously injury the guy.It’s hard to test this theory out.

Focusing on the original point of this thread ( since it seems that nobody is actually reading each other's posts anyways):
Iron hand training does NOT make anyone a better striker BUT it does allow one to strike harder and worry less about getting their hands injured.
The ability to strike and strike well comes from constant and consistent training in, wait for it, striking !
If you wanna be able to strike and strike well you must do just that and the more different types of fighters you face the more you will be able to strike them.
Really, it's just that simple.

True IH practise is time consuming and painful ( though not THAt painful) and for many it is a question of time.
Is the minimum 45 min per day of IH training worth it? can time be better spent doing more direct work on fighting?
These are good questions BUT not really an issue because MA are NOT about either/or but about a holistic view of fighting and conditioning is simply a part of it.
IH training is NOT to be done in substitute of anything else ( like hitting the HB for example) but done to compliment BUT it is also NOT a necessity.
Many great fighters, many great strikers have never done IH training.

[MightyB]

Focusing on the original point of this thread ( since it seems that nobody is actually reading each other's posts anyways):
Iron hand training does NOT make anyone a better striker BUT it does allow one to strike harder and worry less about getting their hands injured.
The ability to strike and strike well comes from constant and consistent training in, wait for it, striking !
If you wanna be able to strike and strike well you must do just that and the more different types of fighters you face the more you will be able to strike them.
Really, it's just that simple.

True IH practise is time consuming and painful ( though not THAt painful) and for many it is a question of time.
Is the minimum 45 min per day of IH training worth it? can time be better spent doing more direct work on fighting?
These are good questions BUT not really an issue because MA are NOT about either/or but about a holistic view of fighting and conditioning is simply a part of it.
IH training is NOT to be done in substitute of anything else ( like hitting the HB for example) but done to compliment BUT it is also NOT a necessity.
Many great fighters, many great strikers have never done IH training.

Yeah - you sumbich's - listen to this post!

[SteveLau]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown. Has this topic come up before? Again I guess it is hard to test this theory unless you used it for real, but unless you are trying to seriously injury the guy.It’s hard to test this theory out.

Wiz cool c,

Yep. Some techniques like most strikes allowed in many MA styles are not found in wrestling. I figure that the main reason is that these strikes will render grappling and wrestling techniques ineffective. That means a wrestler will be likely being fended off before he reaches his opponent. That is also why MMA fight usually starts and ends with strikes only. The reachability of strike techniques tells us why.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Frost]

Wiz cool c,

Yep. Some techniques like most strikes allowed in many MA styles are not found in wrestling. I figure that the main reason is that these strikes will render grappling and wrestling techniques ineffective. That means a wrestler will be likely being fended off before he reaches his opponent. That is also why MMA fight usually starts and ends with strikes only. The reachability of strike techniques tells us why.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

Can I ask, have you been drinking???

[YouKnowWho]

That is also why MMA fight usually starts and ends with strikes only.

A fight may start with strikes, but most of the time, it may end with clinch.

[SteveLau]

A fight may start with strikes, but most of the time, it may end with clinch.

Sure, it happens.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong