Iron Hand Against Grapplers

[mickey]

Greetings,

It is pretty obvious you were/are not talking self defense.

And yes, I came back because of the ramifications of such conduct. This thread should be flushed.

mickey

[wiz cool c]

i imagine you looking and sounding like Woody Allen. dude seems you are trying too hard, one day when you actually have something to contribute, it will come naturally.

[Frost]

I just don't get the whole putting wrestlers on a pedestal thing. I like wrestling, I like training with wrestlers, I'll say I've never trained with anyone I would consider a high level wrestler, but I have sparred with plenty of guys who wrestled for high schools that were well known for producing champion wrestlers and some college wrestlers. I get taken down sometimes, more often I don't. Sometimes I eat a head kick, it happens...Sometimes I do a full sprawl, many times it isn't necessary....you are right that you must deal with the shot before anything else, but it seems like some people make a bigger monster out of wrestlers than they are...I've met TMA guys that were terrified of wrestlers, I've met wrestlers that were terrified of getting punched or kicked in the head...the more they spar each other the less worried they are.

No one is putting wrestling on a pedestal please point out anywhere anyone said it was unbeatable or the single best thing going?
what we are saying is that unless you deal with the shot first, trying to hit them as they shoot is low percentage especially with a downward strike to their head, you have to stop momentum first then knock them out (if you can). The single best way to stop a shot, well it’s the sprawl why is it the best, because it removes the legs and access to the hips, why should you use it, because its high percentage as has been proven over and over in MMA and grappling, now if it’s a bad shot you can level change underhook and shuck them off etc, but you are STILL dealing with the momentum of the shot first before doing anything else.
Im also saying that the chances of running into someone who knows how to shoot, or tackle is higher than someone who knows good boxing or kickboxing in most places, wrestling, judo, football and rugby are very popular sports among the 18-25 year olds who are likely to be in fights, so learning to deal with it correctly might be an idea, not to mention the popularity of MMA itself which far outweighs TCMA
Or to put it another way the only time you see knockouts on people shooting in is with a knee or an uppercut if its well-timed, because you have momentum behind your shot and they run into it, but these are low percentage as well, deal with the shot first then do what you want, and personally I prefer to train against good clean techniques rather than rubbish, but hey call me silly that’s just me.

[wiz cool c]

just cause kung fu hasn’t worked for you doesn’t mean it hasn’t worked for guys like me and subtai. i think instead of believing in everything other than your system ,try spending more time on your systems methods, learn to us them under pressure. not saying try to reinvent the wheel but kung fu was designed for fights not competition, and many of the methods work well in fights,i have used them in real fight thats how i know. if you do a half ass job training in your system then jump on what every is the flavor of the day, why do kung fu at all?

I don’t need someone telling me what i do doesn’t work and what they do is the gospel because it was in a ring against well trained athletes. if that is what works for them fine, does not detract form what works for me in he slightest. as mentioned before ground fighting is lacking in kung fu so that needs to be added to be well rounded. other than that kun fu has everything else needed. and yes i have learned a sprawl before exhausting

[Frost]

Guys like you and Subtai, please don’t drag him down to your level we actually have examples of him fighting doing stuff and he argument was sensible as he can actually wrestle
If you don’t need anyone telling you anything why make this thread, several people answered you who do do iron palm, just because you didn’t like their answer you went off on one,

[boxerbilly]

i imagine you looking and sounding like Woody Allen. dude seems you are trying too hard, one day when you actually have something to contribute, it will come naturally.

Did someone step on your toe's? He just took some of this discussion as distasteful. He may have mistaken your intent. Voiced his opinion. No need to go there. He did not.

[wiz cool c]

He is accusing me of wanting to cripple people in competition,so he kind of went there

[sanjuro_ronin]

Iron palm or iron hand training seems like it would work well against grapplers [though not in a competition setting]. Being that you are constantly striking downward on a bag filled with various objects, eventually developing enormous power in even short range strikes. Seems ideal for striking down on either a grapplers skull or back of his neck,while he is trying to shoot in for a takedown. Has this topic come up before? Again I guess it is hard to test this theory unless you used it for real, but unless you are trying to seriously injury the guy.It’s hard to test this theory out.

Focusing on the original point of this thread ( since it seems that nobody is actually reading each other's posts anyways):
Iron hand training does NOT make anyone a better striker BUT it does allow one to strike harder and worry less about getting their hands injured.
The ability to strike and strike well comes from constant and consistent training in, wait for it, striking !
If you wanna be able to strike and strike well you must do just that and the more different types of fighters you face the more you will be able to strike them.
Really, it's just that simple.

True IH practise is time consuming and painful ( though not THAt painful) and for many it is a question of time.
Is the minimum 45 min per day of IH training worth it? can time be better spent doing more direct work on fighting?
These are good questions BUT not really an issue because MA are NOT about either/or but about a holistic view of fighting and conditioning is simply a part of it.
IH training is NOT to be done in substitute of anything else ( like hitting the HB for example) but done to compliment BUT it is also NOT a necessity.
Many great fighters, many great strikers have never done IH training.

[MightyB]

I just don't get the whole putting wrestlers on a pedestal thing. I like wrestling, I like training with wrestlers, I'll say I've never trained with anyone I would consider a high level wrestler, but I have sparred with plenty of guys who wrestled for high schools that were well known for producing champion wrestlers and some college wrestlers. I get taken down sometimes, more often I don't. Sometimes I eat a head kick, it happens...Sometimes I do a full sprawl, many times it isn't necessary....you are right that you must deal with the shot before anything else, but it seems like some people make a bigger monster out of wrestlers than they are...I've met TMA guys that were terrified of wrestlers, I've met wrestlers that were terrified of getting punched or kicked in the head...the more they spar each other the less worried they are.

I know... right? Seriously, everyone should realize by now from their own personal experiences in kwoons, gyms, etc - that there's definitely different levels of quality in instruction and students. So even if they're training something like MMA, BJJ, Judo, Wrestling - it still doesn't mean a whole lot, 'cuz they could suck. But, like Frost said, you don't train to fight scrubs.

And hopefully people understand that you don't drop into a solid horse stance and say "come at me bro". 'cuz that's crazy.

And hopefully people understand that you don't go into a MMA competition without training MMA. 'cuz that's crazy, same goes for San Shou - you train differently for good reason.

But - realize that good shoots are within arms length - know that sh*t, internalize it - that way you know to stay mobile and watch out for the traps and fakes. You can walk away from a shoot.


Again - look at the tie up, watch the shoot miss, the other guy counters with a trip shoot combo (uchi mata to a deep ko soto?) 'cuz it's wrestling


and this is just bad@ss


I may have forgotten my point with this thread, but that power bomb is bad@ss!

[MightyB]

Focusing on the original point of this thread ( since it seems that nobody is actually reading each other's posts anyways):
Iron hand training does NOT make anyone a better striker BUT it does allow one to strike harder and worry less about getting their hands injured.
The ability to strike and strike well comes from constant and consistent training in, wait for it, striking !
If you wanna be able to strike and strike well you must do just that and the more different types of fighters you face the more you will be able to strike them.
Really, it's just that simple.

True IH practise is time consuming and painful ( though not THAt painful) and for many it is a question of time.
Is the minimum 45 min per day of IH training worth it? can time be better spent doing more direct work on fighting?
These are good questions BUT not really an issue because MA are NOT about either/or but about a holistic view of fighting and conditioning is simply a part of it.
IH training is NOT to be done in substitute of anything else ( like hitting the HB for example) but done to compliment BUT it is also NOT a necessity.
Many great fighters, many great strikers have never done IH training.

Yeah - you sumbich's - listen to this post!

[boxerbilly]

He is accusing me of wanting to cripple people in competition,so he kind of went there

I know. Perhaps try and find away to explain it. If you believe you did, and he still misunderstands , maybe find another way ? I am pretty sure you are not malicious in any way. You make good post. Always polite.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Even I went there: "take the odyssey" "find out for yourself" I had to catch myself. I apologize for my contributions. It wasn't the right thing for me to do.

mickey

[GeneChing]

There was a period when Grandmaster Alex Tao, who produced our Iron Palm and Iron Body materials, was coaching conditioning for Cung Le. I was hoping something more would come of it and planned to do some sort of story on it, but the language barrier was too difficult for that to continue for very long. Note that it was just one aspect of the training program at Cung's gym and this was several years ago, prior to his UFC days (might have even been prior to Strikeforce - I don't really remember the details).

[Jimbo]

Not regarding IP vs. grappling, but I remember back in the 90s, boxer Kostya Tszyu claimed to practice iron palm. Probably to protect his hands and make them more resilient. He claimed that it worked for him.

[boxerbilly]

MightyB. I trained to fight scrubs. Heck, I probably was a scrub, LOL. I was not real worried about the guys doing MA's. They never seemed to be around much back then. I knew who did what I my area for the most part too. Just me and a few other scrubs. Even 15 years ago, I made my rounds. See who was out there. Who should I worry about. Funny, one that really stood out was a guy in Aikido. There was this hot chick with a broken ankle or something. I struck up conversation. Nice girl. I said, there is something about that guy that is just different from everyone else. She said, 4th dan Judo. He wore a Hakima in Aikido, whatever that means. Most were in white Gi's. The other Hakima guys did not move like him.