Iron Hand Against Grapplers

[wiz cool c]

As mentioned before this is not a striker vs grappler thread, personally I have done bjj,sombo judo and one of my teachers is a pro mma fighter. I don’t think anyone doubts that you need to know grappling and ground fighting. But many of the old school ways can also be effective for down and dirty street fighting.

I also think it is highly unlikely anyone will be defending themselves against a highly skilled wrestler, but it is not impossible. But remember at the beginning of mma days all the grapplers won easily, then strikers started learning some grappling and defending and winning matches using their techniques. So does it mean all traditional hard core methods are useless in fights, not in my experience. just train in your skills hard and practice against these type of attacks. It makes sense that if someone can break a coconut of brick with their fists they can crack a skull. Yes moving targets are different and that’s why they need to be practiced safely with a partner

[MightyB]

As a generalization that may in fact be true. But not all areas. All places. Where I grew up you were most likely to face a good wrestler or a football player. 10 minutes down the road and the rules changes fast. Where you live that may not be the case at all and it is very smart to know what is likely to occur where you spend most of your time in day to day life. And the fact remains as a generalization of course. it is KIDS that do the most fighting on the streets. 13-25. After that they either stop, go to jail, die or upgrade to using weapons. Which make the die/jail results all the more likely. Again, you may live in an area where it is as common for adults to fight as it is for kids but most adults know, they can not take it like they used to anymore. Kid heals in days. We may take weeks to months.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3G6CJogIUY

I see your point - although I think you may be pushing it with 25. You would hope that people have grown up by that age.

I probably have a bias against fearing the proverbial wrastler because I have absolutely no worries about wrestling or the skilz of so called wrestlers on da streetz. Actually I have no worries about fighting whatsoever, 'cuz I'm an adult living in an adult world. Even so, there's nothing in that video link you shared that scared, shocked, surprised or worried me. Although I think the kid was more representative of Judo than wrestling.

I think I partially derailed this thread because it was about IP vs wrestling.

[boxerbilly]

I see your point - although I think you may be pushing it with 25. You would hope that people have grown up by that age.

I probably have a bias against fearing the proverbial wrastler because I have absolutely no worries about wrestling or the skilz of so called wrestlers on da streetz. Actually I have no worries about fighting whatsoever, 'cuz I'm an adult living in an adult world. Even so, there's nothing in that video link you shared that scared, shocked, surprised or worried me. Although I think the kid was more representative of Judo than wrestling.

I think I partially derailed this thread because it was about IP vs wrestling.

I feel I should add that in my area. County wide. Fighting is less common. It still happens. To much some may say. But is is way less then when I grew up and when I grew up it was less then 7 years earlier for my brother. Today, we have greater racial diversity all over. Towns and the city. It is as likely to become best friends with another race as it is with your own. Not when I grew up. At my home school it was predominantly white. I went to an alternative high and there is was mixed. So called bad kids but not really. There were reason why we were considered bad and reasons that caused it.

When I took of to Cali when I turned 18. My best friends were a Filipino, Black from Oceanside and a Iraqi Jew whos family fled Iraq to avoid religious prosecution. Basically death. If you would have asked me at 17 would any of these guys be my friends. Not a f----ing chance. Yet, these 3 I count among my greatest of friendships. We all thought alike and had the best times.

[MightyB]

I went to an alternative high and there is was mixed. So called bad kids but not really. There were reason why we were considered bad and reasons that caused it.

Don't get me started on how our schools are failing and marginalizing some of our most vulnerable children, and how a simple perspective change among the adults at a school could create a better system for everybody. Then this thread would really be derailed!

[boxerbilly]

Don't get me started on how our schools are failing and marginalizing some of our most vulnerable children, and how a simple perspective change among the adults at a school could create a better system for everybody. Then this thread would really be derailed!

Yes, I apologize if I side lined. It is funny, we all called each other by racist names. I will not mention theirs but I was " Eugene the Hon--key". But you had beter not call them anything racist if any of us were around. I always wanted to be known as crackerlicious. Back to IP.

[MightyB]

Yes, I apologize if I side lined. It is funny, we all called each other by racist names. I will not mention theirs but I was " Eugene the Hon--key". But you had beter not call them anything racist if any of us were around. Back to IP.

I know some forum members can do some pretty impressive breaks, but are those skills transferable? Are they the same as IP of the past? Do those skills translate to fighting? Is there a way to test IP in the context of fighting? If all of the above is true, then what is required to maintain the skills and keep them relevant so they can be called upon to be used in a self defense situation?

All this leads to this question; how attainable is IP in our modern world?

[David Jamieson]

I know some forum members can do some pretty impressive breaks, but are those skills transferable? Are they the same as IP of the past? Do those skills translate to fighting? Is there a way to test IP in the context of fighting? If all of the above is true, then what is required to maintain the skills and keep them relevant so they can be called upon to be used in a self defense situation?

All this leads to this question; how attainable is IP in our modern world?

Breaking is just a test.

Toughening of the hands overall is the goal of conditioning regimes, be they heavy bag work, makawari board, 3 star blocking, bag striking, etc, etc.

When people first enter martial arts looking for their magic bullet solution for their 50 bucks a month to deadly mastery of ancient arts, they don't realize that hitting someone in the face can hurt your hand, arm knee, whatever. When you develop the skill and apply it, your hands will be conditioned enough to be felt by your opponent as if they were made of stones. Tie that into flow, breathing, technique and ability to fight and you just have better all round striking abilities.

[Kellen Bassette]

You guys talk as if there's a huge population of people out there that even know, or can perform a decent shoot to go for a single or double leg. There's not. BJJ is terrible at it, and Judo doesn't even teach it anymore - so you have wrestling. How many good wrestlers are there? Not many. And - how many people can even physically drop low enough AND take a good penetrating step to get the single or double after 25? Again - if they're not actively practicing it - not many. So you have some people in MMA schools... but again - the population in those schools that are really good at hitting a single or double is low. You get a few of the active, competitive fighters, who aren't going to waste their time picking fights on-da-streetz that are good at the single or double leg takedowns. So what's that leave? Bull-rushers and tacklers. You can deal with these people with a good base, knowing angles, keeping low, and being mobile. And yes, you should know how to sprawl (and escape a mount) if you f**k up and get caught.

Agree with all of this. I do think one should train to fight the best, not expect to only fight untrained bums, but I know you weren't implying that.

[Kellen Bassette]

So that means you shouldn’t prepare for the best opponent but train low percentage stuff that works on scrubs does it??
And the odds of meeting someone who can hit a good double in the states are probably higher than someone who can kick box or will attack you with any TCMA type strike, its in the high school curriculum and college curriculum of another of schools and colleges and is a D1 sport
Add in those that know how to do a good rugby tackle (basically a high double) or have played college football and can tackle (basically a blast double) and the odds go up way higher
In Europe the odds of meeting someone who has wrestled are low, anyone who did judo as a kid and is over 25 will have learned a double leg, and anyone who did rugby likewise will also have learned something similar to a high double, so if we are talking odds you are probably more likely to face someone who knows how to do a double or something close to it than you are someone who can kick or punch

I just don't get the whole putting wrestlers on a pedestal thing. I like wrestling, I like training with wrestlers, I'll say I've never trained with anyone I would consider a high level wrestler, but I have sparred with plenty of guys who wrestled for high schools that were well known for producing champion wrestlers and some college wrestlers. I get taken down sometimes, more often I don't. Sometimes I eat a head kick, it happens...Sometimes I do a full sprawl, many times it isn't necessary....you are right that you must deal with the shot before anything else, but it seems like some people make a bigger monster out of wrestlers than they are...I've met TMA guys that were terrified of wrestlers, I've met wrestlers that were terrified of getting punched or kicked in the head...the more they spar each other the less worried they are.

[mickey]

Greetings,

The reason i left this thread was because wiz cool c was talking about using Iron Palm in competition. I thought about it for a while and pretty soon found this thread both sickening and twisted. Can you imagine sending a family member of yours going into competition and coming back home paralyzed from the neck down? Just because someone is so bone hard for a victory they learned iron palm to power strike someone behind the neck?


mickey

[boxerbilly]

Rules. Rabbit punching equal bad.

I guess on the street. Each of us must decide how far you are willing to go. I never wanted to cripple or kill anyone. I think most felt the same way. Some guys think other wise. They want to put the hurt for good on someone.

Oh I am not pointing fingers. That's an observation. Or , saying that choice is wrong. That is not for me to decide.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Billy,

Iron Palm is fine to make your hands stronger so your strikes more effective in a self defense situation; but, for the purpose of getting a medal or a trophy really sucks. I understand the reservations over teaching such methods. The person's mindset has to be right.

mickey

[Kellen Bassette]

Greetings,

The reason i left this thread was because wiz cool c was talking about using Iron Palm in competition. I thought about it for a while and pretty soon found this thread both sickening and twisted.

So when you realized it was sick and twisted you decided to come back?

[wiz cool c]

i think this Mickey guy has got a few screws loose, he started telling me how i should learn grappling and should be well rounded, so i told him i have done bjj,sombo and judo and competed in grappling tournaments before. for some reason he thinks this means use iron hand in competition and try to cripple people.

[Subitai]

Sorry Sanjuro Ronin for the play on your words but I hope you realize I'm not trolling you but I believe in other peoples points of view....as I was trying to say earlier, these things can be viewed in different ways.

"O" ...... I can only speak based on my experience, and that experience includes various types of full contact fighting over a wide range of rulesets ( or no rules). Also twice champion in San shou. I feel that I'm a good grappler and that's not ego..its just I'm getting older. I only have my brown belt in Judo because I was 15 and my Sensei wouldn't let me earn my black until I was 16 so I was impatient and left prematurely. But I made my living rolling with the blacks. I was a co-captain of my state champions team and 3rd overall in wrestling. and have competed in MMA, I have actually fought in the early UFC and also in Russia. Those were not fly by nite events...although that was 20yrs ago, I did my best for what I knew back then. I rolled, fought, sparred and worked out ever since and yes I've had a good amount of street fights including 2 times where I've been jumped by multiple guys. Since then, I've only improved and I consider myself a much more knowledgeable and dangerous fighter...albeit I'm in my 40's now. I'm lucky to not have any major injuries and I'm still very strong.

"O" ...so take what I am about to say base don my limited experience ( and yes I do view it as limited):

Sanjuro Ronin said: A horse stance VS a takedown attempt by even a moderately skilled grappler will not work and the reasons are obvious to anyone that has ever grappled a skilled grappler.

"O" = Yes and NO, depends on how you look at it. You're correct for the most part in sport. But the problem with this thinking is that people surmise that a SOLO solid horse is used to thwart a shot just by itself. Of course that won't work, you have to combine it with other things. As I said earlier, if you understand hand control or even to cross face the sh!t out of a guy while in your horse, you can delay him long enough to counter him, sprawl or run his spaze out. It depends on how deep he got in. The main point is you might use horse for a brief second or two before you switch to something else...but you don't rely on it only to stop a shot.

Sanjuro Ronin said: Here is how I view the whole competition VS real fight thing ( and I have said this a few times):

Competition is a controlled environment, it is as even a playing field as you can get.
Because of this IF something doesn't work there, then it probably WILL NOT work in an environment that ISN'T a level playing field and controlled.
That is the true reality of fighting that, for some reason, some people don't grasp.

In the real world there are no rules so if what you do in the ring does NOT work under controlled conditions, what on earth makes you think it will work under uncontrolled conditions ???

"O" = NO and here's why. It is the very nature of chaos that is the exception and not the rule:

-When your in a controlled environment, you KNOW a few things up front and you're ready. You know you're in a fight, you prepare for it and you are willing to take risks because you know it's safe to do so, that is the very nature of sport. Nobody is looking down on that.

-When you're in the street, there are no rules so you have to use many other cues: Is there going to be a fight? or are we just yelling? Are the cops going to get involved? Too many to list, so suffice to say YOU ACT VERY DIFFERENTLY IN THOSE SITUATIONS than when you have "Big John Macarthy" look at you and say: "Are you ready....are you ready, lets get it on"

True story for you guys ok: One time I'm about to get in a fight. Lots of mouthing, back talk and body posturing going on. I'm checking to see if the guy has back up. He gets close to me...I could hit him 1st but I wanna wait and see. The range is in and out, it's very real and worse IMO because unlike the ring I have to watch MANY other things not just him. The range concerns me, in the ring you'd never let stuff like that happen, it's a totally different feel. He gets close and I can see by his body language he's thinking about trying to fake me out or sucker punch me. I relax as much as possible and bring my right hand up to my chin.....i'm ready.

When he takes the swing I fire out a short back fist, (something we do in my Filippino style) The knuckes of my right fist dig deeply into his upper lip just below his nose. When you do it right, blood splurts out and he covers his mouth and goes down. He's mine after that and in my eyes, it doesn't matter if the guy was a world class fighter or a slob...they all fall the same way when they get hit right.

I bring up that story up not to brag but to show another point of view: I.e. the point being is, that particular back fist wouldn't do jack SH!T in the octagon. There's plenty of things that I've been able to do in the chaos of street but would totally suck if I tried them in the ring... So your comment about controlled environment means nothing to me. Sorry if I have another point of view but so long as those possibilities exist, in my eyes your quote is NOT TRUE


P.S. and before any of you MotherFlowers wanna talk smack about my fights, make sure you put up your own vids of when you fought professionally so I can have the same opportunity to judge you. Preferably, fights from at least 10 yrs ago or more so I can see how you used to be and not how you are currently.