Iron Hand Against Grapplers

[Frost]

Check that Silva article I posted earlier and it describes the process of why this statement is true and how you can use a wide stance to shut down takedown attempts.

Silva had a great clinch game, very long levers and the best defensive wrestling coach going, the same guy who taught Aldo and Penn, taking a wide stance opens you up to a single or a body lock which is what Henderson and sonnen hit him with.

[Subitai]

IMO, if you want to learn how to strike a grappler...learn to grapple yourself and then find the available holes in the game. It's that simple.

What's interesting to me here is that a lot of points or (weaknesses) to address have been made and a person could choose to take up the cross for any one of them.

Lets looks at some facts, assuming you're the attacker:

From an mma grappler standpoint, I need to enter in without taking significant damage and bring you down. Frost basically talks about lowering his level properly...Love it. But the reason a grappler does it so well is because he sets up his opponent 1st and then takes advantage of that. Of course you don't start from 4' away, unless you know he's just tired and can't move. Then anything might work.

However, if you have some form of control (a arm or a leg) 1st and are close enough, Ala what JOHN is alluding to; you don't need to lower your level in a collegiate style takedown.

If i'm a striker, i'm dealing with potential long range to close up very quickly. One of the 1st issues in this concept is controlling the distance and also how much SPACE do you have or control. If i'm in a football field i can take my space differently then when i'm forced into a cage. THATS a fact!!

In my experience this is where things get hairy and allot of guys think that striking is all about damage and hurting the other guy. But there are other methods like striking to push or pull (usually down or lift) to create space. You do this by being solid yet agile on your feet. The mistake allot of strikers make IMO is going for the knockout as a stop gap or finish move and when it fails...it fails miserably.

We've all been there, (well most of us) when the pressure is on and you just want to knock the guy out. But learning to relax at that time and let the opportunity happen comes from maturity.

Other observation:
If a guy shoots on me and I lower my level with him and also get hand control for example, yes I can use "in part" a horse stance to help me into my next counter. In that regard, what Kellen said is also possible, it depends on the set up.


to wiz cool c, My take is Iron hand should not be viewed as a finish move... one shot one kill kind of deal. It's a tool like other weapons, I hope you get my drift?


So you see, there is an argument for almost everyone's point if you look at it a certain way.

[YouKnowWho]

So you see, there is an argument for almost everyone's point if you look at it a certain way.

This is why we should just express our opinions and at the same time respect other's opinion.

[MightyB]

This is why we should just express our opinions and at the same time respect other's opinion.

Exactly
....

[MightyB]

Horse stance is very useful in stuffing takedowns. You don't need to sprawl if you catch him before he gets deep.

The sprawl is a last resort move. It's what you do when you screwed up and didn't change levels, control the distance by being mobile, use angles, and keep a low base. In other words, you let him catch you!

[YouKnowWho]

Frost basically talks about lowering his level properly...Love it.

If you use Chinese wrestling "single leg", you don't need to drop that low. The nice thing about Chinese wrestling approach is if you can use your right hand to push on your opponent's right shoulder, your opponent's right hand can't punch you. If your opponent tries to punch you with his left hand, you can raise up your right elbow and hide your head next to it (just like the WC Bong Shou) to block that left punch. It's much safer this way if striking is allowed in the wrestling game.

[YouKnowWho]

I need to enter in without taking significant damage and bring you down.

Agree! The "safe entering" is the key. You can achieve that by disabling your opponent's leading leg (so he can't kick or knee) and both arms (so he can't punch or elbow) while entering.

[Kellen Bassette]

The sprawl is a last resort move. It's what you do when you screwed up and didn't change levels, control the distance by being mobile, use angles, and keep a low base. In other words, you let him catch you!

Exactly, when I am forced to sprawl I'm disappointed, it means I was very nearly taken down.

[boxerbilly]

If you use Chinese wrestling "single leg", you don't need to drop that low. The nice thing about Chinese wrestling approach is if you can use your right hand to push on your opponent's right shoulder, your opponent's right hand can't punch you. If your opponent tries to punch you with his left hand, you can raise up your right elbow and hide your head next to it (just like the WC Bong Shou) to block that left punch. It's much safer this way if striking is allowed in the wrestling game.

That's a nice move John.

In boxing we call that shoulder push " stops" Shoulder stops, Elbow ( bicep ) stops. Some of the standing grappling you are showing us with your examples were probably very similar to older method of boxing.

[wiz cool c]

Im not trying to turn this into a striker vs grappler thing necessarily. In the Shaolin Kung Fu I have been doing for the past several years[I have done many martial arts since my early teens]they usually incorporate a grab pull with one hand and a strike with the other hand, so actually many of the techniques are a combination of grappling striking.

I also practice a Shaolin method called Iron Bone Fist, which I haven’t gotten to use on anyone yet[hopefully never have to] that make your fist really hard.im not sure how this would be used against a grappler but do some serious damage to someone’s face.

[wiz cool c]

iron plam/hand, palm is not really an accurate description in that when practices on a bag one does hammer fist knife hands back fist etc. for those who practice these these methods sincerely can you imagine the result of hammer fisting someone in the side of the head if they were on the bottom on the ground and there head had nowhere to go with the floor restricting its movement

[boxerbilly]

Im not trying to turn this into a striker vs grappler thing necessarily. In the Shaolin Kung Fu I have been doing for the past several years[I have done many martial arts since my early teens]they usually incorporate a grab pull with one hand and a strike with the other hand, so actually many of the techniques are a combination of grappling striking.

I also practice a Shaolin method called Iron Bone Fist, which I haven’t gotten to use on anyone yet[hopefully never have to] that make your fist really hard.im not sure how this would be used against a grappler but do some serious damage to someone’s face.

I think most of us realize that. Most arts had/have grappling. Many mainly standing. That was because they evolved out of battlefield arts. Peace time comes. Specialization and sport happens. Things evolve. Some see it as good others as it kills the art. I see it both way but boxing lost its grappling for the most part. We have still have tie ups but no toss.

[Kellen Bassette]

Im not trying to turn this into a striker vs grappler thing necessarily. In the Shaolin Kung Fu I have been doing for the past several years[I have done many martial arts since my early teens]they usually incorporate a grab pull with one hand and a strike with the other hand, so actually many of the techniques are a combination of grappling striking.

I don't make a distinction of kung fu being grappling or striking. Both are integrated and necessary for it to work as it should.

[Cataphract]

Sumotori use their palms against grapplers (other sumotori) all the time. Just saying...

[sanjuro_ronin]

I can only speak based on my experience, and that experience includes various types of full contact fighting over a wide range of rulesets ( or no rules).
I am an average grappler AT BEST, I only have a 2nd degree BB in Judo and went as far as purple in BJJ and have competed at the provincial and national level in grappling and have competed in MMA, so take what I am about to say base don my limited experience ( and yes I do view it as limited):
A horse stance VS a takedown attempt by even a moderately skilled grappler will not work and the reasons are obvious to anyone that has ever grappled a skilled grappler.
A sprawl is NOT a last ditch attempt, it is the logical counter to a takedown attempted centered around your legs - you simply remove the target from the reach of the attacker, MA class 101.

BUT back on subject:
The issue in regards to counter a takedown with striking is and always has been this: Momentum and speed.

Unless you are skilled in hitting a moving target when you are NOT rooted and NOT balanced and are able to generate enough force in THAT situation to compromise the attacker structure, it simply will not work well enough.