Kaifeng. That's well documented.Originally Posted by Jimbo
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Kaifeng. That's well documented.
Itinerant practitioner
Very true and most scholars agree they were there around the time of Northern Song Dynasty.
Some speculate even earlier, but Northern Song started in mid 900s CE.
so, yes, silk road was a factor and so was the Babylonian expulsion, which is where the speculation about Jews arriving in China earlier comes from as that took place around 600CE.
Kung Fu is good for you.
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That's a rather vague statement. What is your point of reference? Cultures have been developing in isolation for tens of thousands of years.
You vastly overestimate the speed with which information could travel in ancient times. 4000-7000 years ago seems like a long time, but that's just a short, recent blip in reference to human culture (we've been farming for at least 11,000 year). Why do I use that 4-7k time frame? Because that is, according to our best evidence, the time in which humans first began using horses for transportation (and that's for the first, it took another 2-3000 years to become a widespread practice). Rapid transportation is the minimum necessity for the rate of information transfer we are talking about. People migrated on foot and covered great distances for sure, but that took far too long (again, tens of thousands of years). Cultures and their knowledge spring up and snuff out in far less time.
The reality is, many things were developed independently, by many peoples. Something as simple as a spear head, while functionally equivalent, may be fashioned entirely differently by different cultures (in fact, that very example is one prominent way we can differentiate the migration of ancient East Asian vs. Eurasian people).
Don't assume similarity indicates commonality. Often its simply a case of convergent evolution.
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Ok, let's just derail this thread some more.
There are documented relations between Europe and the East Asia since antiquity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_conquests_in_India
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Roman_relations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Roman_relations
This may also be of some interest -
Submission Fighting and the Rules of Greek Wrestling
http://judoinfo.com/research8.pdf
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Everything you write makes sense but is it correct ? I don't know. Recently, maybe 3 month ago I was watching some documentary on tv. I think it was about Mayan or Ancient Puruvians. What they were saying was they found essentially Japanese artwork on the pottery. That was the same as what Japan was creating at the same time. Convergent Evolution ? One monkey discovered something and puff- we all know it know. Super conscious Jung stuff ? Maybe. Or maybe they covered more distance and a much faster rate than tens of thousands of years. It all really is a guess and whom you choose to believe I think,
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Thanks for the Wiki links. I have yet found time to read that pdf file. I skimmed it.
I would say sorry to be the impetus for derailing the thread but I may not be completely to blame but I did my part, lol and really when these things happen threads that may not have potential to grow because they are answered in 2 posts change direction because one writes something of further interest that has parallel relationship to the topic. I know some hate that. Neat and tidy but I think that way of thought chokes learning and understanding. Even if there is disagreement in what anyone believes. It present alternate possibilities.
Most nomadic or isolated tribes. Those that tended to remain outside of any civilization tend to stagnate in development across the board. So aside from the most primitive of skills there impact on civilization is next to nil. Now we do not have to go back tens of thousands of years even though some believe evidence exist that we may have got around a lot more than once believed. But just to time frames of around Jesus. We find people got around rather well, Traveling vast distances in relatively short time frames. Not days like now but perhaps months depending on water ways or a year depending on land paths. Trade is a basis of all civilization and commodity is the cause of all wars between civilization. Money and power. Even then. This is why archaeologist uncover material that should not be in one area because it has always been associated as only from another area. How did it get there ? Yes the possibility exist that someone figured out the same way. It happens but more likely it was traded somewhere along time and potentially modified so much the source has been lost and it becomes a educated guess at best.
If convergent evolution is such a great theory then why do primitive, isolated tribes have little in the way of anything advance, science or medicine or war like ? Basically they stayed hidden to avoid conflict. Not a bad thing if you want to live in a shack in the middle of nowhere. Which is for the most part how they live.
So for myself, I believe more so in we learned and expanded on that learning and dropped what had no need for in our area. Regardless the skill. We have always shared and improved on what we learned when possible. So, some country invade and kicks your ass. Captures prisoner soldiers. They have a choice after being removed by sat 1000 miles to be kept as slaves. Teach us your war arts or die. I wonder how many decide, death sucks, this is how we kick !
Could that not have been a [possibility and one that may in fact have more " belief" basis than , it came to me out of thin air. Which I also believe happens but not so much across the board or map if you prefer.
Edit. I watched some vids on the art. Just quickly. For the most part I believe most of the methods I watched share very little in common with modern or older methods of boxing going back a couple of hundred years. It looked closer to standing wrestling methods with hit inserts. I did watch another short clip and the guy was doing very similar motions with his staff that he did empty hand. Does anyone know if this art was derived from staff or spear arts as the base ?
Last edited by boxerbilly; 10-21-2015 at 12:33 PM.
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Look at the dates on those links again. Where does that fit into the timeline we're speaking about?
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Good thing there's internet for searching.
The people you are looking for are the Valdivia of c 3000 BC Ecuador. TV documentaries are not academic grade resources. You are referring to the hypothesis proposed by Meggers back in the 60's.Recently, maybe 3 month ago I was watching some documentary on tv. I think it was about Mayan or Ancient Puruvians.
Not same. Similar. They weren't talking just about artwork. They were talking about overall traits. So lets see, two coastal peoples with similar tool needs, and its surprising that what they would create would be similar? (And no, they were not "essentially" the same, there were differences.)What they were saying was they found essentially Japanese artwork on the pottery. That was the same as what Japan was creating at the same time.
Or maybe you should do more reading than spouting off, in the process revealing you have no clue what I'm talking about.Convergent Evolution ? One monkey discovered something and puff- we all know it know. Super conscious Jung stuff ? Maybe. Or maybe they covered more distance and a much faster rate than tens of thousands of years.
No, you either have a value for evidence or you don't. I suppose those that don't would by result be ignorant enough of the matter to think its all guesswork.It all really is a guess and whom you choose to believe I think,
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You're rambling. None of that was a consistent statement. I would encourage you to go back and clarify (first with yourself) exactly what it is you're trying to say.
Here you go with the ridiculous "out of this air" strawman again, masking that you don't actually know what I'm saying. I'm going to make this as basic as possible. Independent occurrences of the same problem. Should it be all that strange that in fixing those problems, people ultimately found quite similar solutions? Two different treatments for infection by a similar bacteria, one from TCM, the other from South American ancestral practices. Should it be surprising that when looking at the chemical profile of two different extracts from two different plants from two different continents, that are both used to treat two very similar (if not different strains of the same) microbial infections, would be similar themselves. That is why they both work, because they are similar. Similar, but independently evolved. And the preparations are similar. Imagine that. Finding common solutions to common problems is sort of the way things work. That's called efficiency.Could that not have been a [possibility and one that may in fact have more " belief" basis than , it came to me out of thin air. Which I also believe happens but not so much across the board or map if you prefer.
Registered User
SoCo,
You have very good points about convergent evolution and different cultures finding similar solutions to problems out of efficiency. I would agree with what you said about the different cultures finding similar but different plants to cure a common illness. However, Billy originally said that they were finding pottery that was similar (S. America and Japan.) Sorry I am writing this on the fly and don't have a link to any examples. But my question to you (and I will respect your input- I have grown to appreciate it) is, how would you account for a similarity in the expression of art, such as pottery styles (in both the shape of the pot/vase as well as the artwork on such an object)? This may even be seen in elements of architecture, etc. across cultures (an Indian architectual design compared with a Mayan design for instance). There are even striking common similarities in some of the ancient heiroglyphic alphabets of the oldest civilizations throughout the known world. It is in this sort of an area that somebody like myself or Billy or whoever might step back and say "well, maybe this isn't a coincidence." Also, alot of old cultures not only got around on foot but were able to travel great distances through the water ways and were very keen/ highly intellegent navigators (through river systems, in some cases, like the Polynesians across the Pacific ocean, etc.) What are your thoughts on these specific issues? Thanks.
Registered User
Nowhere in particular. Someone started talking about Jews in China and Japanese pottery in South America and I thought they might fit the general theme. Hence the remark on derailing.
As a matter of fact I was always thinking of convergent evolution. Maybe my starting post should have been: Would somebody familiar to the original core ideas of Tong Bei say that western boxing exhibits "through the back" characteristics?
By the way, I read (on the internet) that the Japanese were unfamiliar to boxing with closed fists before Meiji restoration. Maybe the western way of boxing isn't as universal as some might believe.
Last edited by Cataphract; 10-23-2015 at 12:33 AM.
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I ramble a lot. Probably brain damage. Thanks for pointing direction to look at.
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Did y'all notice....
He (SoCo) never responded to or looked at the orginal evidence that was brought up (the similarity in pottery/art styles.) What he did was, he introduced some other points to the topic of the conversation so he could say/ make the points that he wanted to. Notice how there is no mention on his behalf of the pottery styles--- he basically just ignored it and looked at things like styles of spear points, from other regions of the world (and I would have to agree with his points in that particular case) and how people used plants (again I would have to agree.) But he totally ignored the pottery/ similarities of art and what this might imply if further researched.... which is why it won't be further researched. The thing is, he made good points but not from the examples others were talking about, all while sounding like it is the final word on the subject, while trying to make other people look like idiots, which is dangerous. I tried to be nice about it and wasn't even met with a response.
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My main thing is, I do not believe as much in isolated development. He may be correct in that I used examples to make my case that are time appropriate .Stylistic differences will happen. But, I still believe things were shared and altered. How they got shared may be hard to source. I used the Jews in that era to point out , the possibility exist that the Chinese may have adopted ideas from them. And vice versa. How many of those Jews may have decided after 5-10 years, China is not for us and left. Taking with them ideas and methods they picked up while there. Only to have to modify things once they settled elsewhere. Do to the now environment they were in. If in the case of pottery it could happen. Why not then in the case of martial arts or anything ?
Hope that makes sense. Is it true ? I don't know. But, I do believe the possibility exist and has stronger circumstantial evidence than many other possibilities. Could arts have developed isolated and complete form? I believe it is possible but it becomes unlikely in my opinion. What really makes it hard is even things 200 years old have convoluted history.
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