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Thread: Is Western Boxing Tong Bei?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    My main thing is, I do not believe as much in isolated development. He may be correct in that I used examples to make my case that are time appropriate .Stylistic differences will happen. But, I still believe things were shared and altered. How they got shared may be hard to source. I used the Jews in that era to point out , the possibility exist that the Chinese may have adopted ideas from them. And vice versa. How many of those Jews may have decided after 5-10 years, China is not for us and left. Taking with them ideas and methods they picked up while there. Only to have to modify things once they settled elsewhere. Do to the now environment they were in. If in the case of pottery it could happen. Why not then in the case of martial arts or anything ?

    Hope that makes sense. Is it true ? I don't know. But, I do believe the possibility exist and has stronger circumstantial evidence than many other possibilities. Could arts have developed isolated and complete form? I believe it is possible but it becomes unlikely in my opinion. What really makes it hard is even things 200 years old have convoluted history.
    edit, Matt. I am glad you are posting again. I always enjoy your additions. BY the way, I asked you about Apache foot fighting in another thread on herbs I believe. You may have missed. If you know anything about that art could you pm me about it please. I used to know what it was more specifically called but the first time I was made aware of it was from a Mohawk who mentioned it by what I am calling it here. Thanks...
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 10-23-2015 at 07:51 AM.

  2. #32
    Greetings,

    The meaning of Tong Bei was one I never accepted. I thought it was a reference to the heaviness and strength of the fist, being powerful enough to punch into the chest and exit through the back of the opponent. Time will tell on this.

    mickey

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by mickey View Post
    Greetings,

    The meaning of Tong Bei was one I never accepted. I thought it was a reference to the heaviness and strength of the fist, being powerful enough to punch into the chest and exit through the back of the opponent. Time will tell on this.

    mickey
    You mean to actually punch through a guy ? I believe, possible only with a weapon. Not a bad mental picture for ideal. I just don't see it happening. There may have been some that could pierce certain areas of a body with the fingers. If so, it is doubtful there are any left in modern times. Can you imaging the time and effort it would take to achieve such a thing ? 10-20 years. And the damage done to the hands. I am not sure dit jow would help prevent damage.

  4. #34
    Hi Billy,

    Not literally. Just a name indicating that their striking method is a strong one.

    mickey

  5. #35
    The Greek boxers Cleomedes and Damoxenus disembowled their opponents with spear hand strikes.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Cataphract View Post
    The Greek boxers Cleomedes and Damoxenus disembowled their opponents with spear hand strikes.
    Thanks, I do not know very much about ancient Greece boxing or their martial arts in general aside from brief history study. I just found this Googled Cleomede's.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=U-...trikes&f=false

    If you scroll up a page it is being said that Boxing was considered more lethal than Pankration. First I have heard of this. I would have considered Pankration more so. Perhaps if these guys could penetrate flesh as deeply as suggested, (something I still have trouble believing ) , then maybe their boxing art was more complete and potentially sophisticated than we may give them credit ?

    Edit, okay poking around my own gut, maybe they could have going upward under the rib cage, grabbing the rib and whatever else they could secure and ripping out. The speed of execution we might think needs to be great but maybe not ? Maybe it is all about having strong straight fingers to dig in as deeply as possible and then secure a bunch of everything and pull like the devil out. Maybe one would not need 10 years to do that ?

    I never want to do that to anyone, LOL. No thanks!
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 10-23-2015 at 12:23 PM.

  7. #37
    And Karate master Anko Itosu could tear the raw meat for his stew without any tools. I guess some people are just incredibly strong. I have no clue how long it would take to bring your hand strength to the genetically programmed maximum. I guess you see good results after three years of eating stew every day.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Cataphract View Post
    And Karate master Anko Itosu could tear the raw meat for his stew without any tools. I guess some people are just incredibly strong. I have no clue how long it would take to bring your hand strength to the genetically programmed maximum. I guess you see good results after three years of eating stew every day.
    Is he the one credited with making karate safe for school kids ?

  9. #39
    Yes, that was him. He was a government official and the driving force behind Karate's inclusion as a physical education program. He changed many the older forms. Some say he based his Pinan forms on a Chinese Channan, others argue he created them himself. Anyway they became the basic forms of his lineage. He was a very athletic man, but there were tensions with his master Matsumora (who had studied for many years in Fujian) for not being nimble enough, or so the story goes.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataphract View Post
    And Karate master Anko Itosu could tear the raw meat for his stew without any tools. I guess some people are just incredibly strong. I have no clue how long it would take to bring your hand strength to the genetically programmed maximum. I guess you see good results after three years of eating stew every day.
    Chef Chan can eviscerate a chicken without the use of knives. I think that has more to do with physiological understanding of the skinned beast in question. It is pretty amazing to watch someone de-bone a chicken without a knife though.
    We can all tear at meat. It's fibrous muscle tissue.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  11. #41
    How much force does it take to tear a muscle? Depends on the cross section. Sure it happens, but seldom by hand. You have to work mostly against the collagen in the muscle‘s connective tissue. I‘ve found 20 MPa as maximum for the ultimate tensile strength of skin, which should be similar. Rubber has 16, pine wood 40. Problem isn‘t as much snapping rubber, but the necessary grip strength. Meat is slippery.

    I for one find his feat impressive.

  12. #42
    I used to chin and elbow dig and grab skin to get guys to move their arms when I wrestled. We all did ! Of course don't get caught. I use to grab the skin with the first row of knuckles after the finger tip like I was making a fist. Hard to spot and it only takes a second and elbows tend to move fast.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    This makes me wonder all the more if Bawang was not onto something with WC is a knife art. It may not have begun that way. But, ideas may have been adopted based on a certain knife of the day. Somewhere that understand was possibly lost or forgot or just never discussed and so most know believe, it was never the case. Either could be right because as some have pointed out. WC history is somewhat murky.
    Absolutely not. Wing chun is a spear art. Knives were bolted on between 90 and 125 years ago. Wrong knives and wrong approach for any earlier. Why learn a principle based ma with knives as the ultimate goal when different principles apply to the knives? Complete waste of time, lol. Knife based art starts with the knife and builds empty hand on, not other way around.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    Absolutely not. Wing chun is a spear art. Knives were bolted on between 90 and 125 years ago. Wrong knives and wrong approach for any earlier. Why learn a principle based ma with knives as the ultimate goal when different principles apply to the knives? Complete waste of time, lol. Knife based art starts with the knife and builds empty hand on, not other way around.
    Makes sense and that is your belief and probably many believe just that. Bawang said otherwise. So, I do not know but I wonder, does the possibility exist ? Bawangs WC friends believe so if I understood him correctly.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    Wing chun is a spear art
    lol

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