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Thread: Exorcism

  1. #16
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    TRUE exorcisms are far and few between and there are NO DOUBTS that something supernatural is going on.
    The RCC has a VERY strict policy and what is a real possession and believe you me, IF the "list" is all "checked off" then it IS a demonic posession.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    TRUE exorcisms are far and few between and there are NO DOUBTS that something supernatural is going on.
    The RCC has a VERY strict policy and what is a real possession and believe you me, IF the "list" is all "checked off" then it IS a demonic posession.
    you forgot to add "muwhahahahahahahahahah". lol
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    you forgot to add "muwhahahahahahahahahah". lol
    Fair enough.
    I was just pointing out that IF the RCC officially says that it is an posession that the criteria met is so strict that there probably is no natural explanation for what is happening.
    Psalms 144:1
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    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Fair enough.
    I was just pointing out that IF the RCC officially says that it is an posession that the criteria met is so strict that there probably is no natural explanation for what is happening.
    I'm not sure about that.
    If it's a chemistry issue, if it's an unknown brain dysfunction, mental illness etc.

    I mean, just because a psychologist doesn't know or a doctor doesn't know doesn't mean it defaults to spiritual possession by some decree.

    What humanity doesn't know could fill several galaxies I'm sure.

    is it possible? Sure, anything is possible.
    But consider this, up until 1972 the American Psychiatric Association considered transgenderism and ****sexuality to be a mental illness.
    Now that they changed their minds about it, it's no longer in that category.

    Religion is fine and all, but it's not like it hasn't messed up before in it's interpretations of natural events.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    I'm not sure about that.
    If it's a chemistry issue, if it's an unknown brain dysfunction, mental illness etc.

    I mean, just because a psychologist doesn't know or a doctor doesn't know doesn't mean it defaults to spiritual possession by some decree.

    What humanity doesn't know could fill several galaxies I'm sure.

    is it possible? Sure, anything is possible.
    But consider this, up until 1972 the American Psychiatric Association considered transgenderism and ****sexuality to be a mental illness.
    Now that they changed their minds about it, it's no longer in that category.

    Religion is fine and all, but it's not like it hasn't messed up before in it's interpretations of natural events.
    The only issue would be that very LITTLE of what qualifies as a sign of possession has to do with the mental state of the person.

    Things like speaking in a dead language by a child AND exhibiting knowledge the child can NOT have AND strength beyond the norm for human beings AND...well, the point is that MULTIPLE lines of evidence are required not just one or two.
    Reality is that the RCC is probably one of the hardest to convince of demonic possession.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post


    TRUE exorcisms are far and few between and there are NO DOUBTS that something supernatural is going on.
    The RCC has a VERY strict policy and what is a real possession and believe you me, IF the "list" is all "checked off" then it IS a demonic posession.

    ***********

    The only issue would be that very LITTLE of what qualifies as a sign of possession has to do with the mental state of the person.


    Things like speaking in a dead language by a child AND exhibiting knowledge the child can NOT have AND strength beyond the norm for human beings AND...well, the point is that MULTIPLE lines of evidence are required not just one or two.

    I’d like to ask two questions about that.

    Are those things filmed or recorded and made available for critical scrutiny? Or have they just been reported.

    Also, even if those things do occur, and appear to be "supernatural" in some sense of the word, why does that mean the explanation has to be demonic possession? Couldn't there be other supernatural explanations? For example speaking a dead language could be (for those who believe in the supernatural) an expression of reincarnation. Other inexplicable phenomena might be expressions of telepathy, or simply supernatural physical strength. Can one automatically equate "something supernatural" with "demonic possession"?
    Last edited by rett2; 04-08-2016 at 07:58 AM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by rett2 View Post
    Id like to ask two questions about that.

    Are those things filmed or recorded and made available for critical scrutiny? Or have they just been reported.

    Also, even if those things do occur, and appear to be "supernatural" in some sense of the word, why does that mean the explanation has to be demonic possession? Couldn't there be other supernatural explanations? For example speaking a dead language could be (for those who believe in the supernatural) an expression of reincarnation. Other inexplicable phenomena might be expressions of telepathy, or simply supernatural physical strength. Can one automatically equate "something supernatural" with "demonic possession"?
    Yes, there are archives of videos and such and no, not just anyone can see them and yes, investigative journalist have seen them and Yes, the majority were concluded to NOT be possessions.
    Again, no one is going to scream out "demon possession" with 1 or 2 lines of evidence.
    My point is that it takes A LOT for something to be viewed by the RCC as an actual possession and when all the evidence is there, one is hard pressed to find a different conclusion.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Yes, there are archives of videos and such and no, not just anyone can see them and yes, investigative journalist have seen them and Yes, the majority were concluded to NOT be possessions.
    Again, no one is going to scream out "demon possession" with 1 or 2 lines of evidence.
    My point is that it takes A LOT for something to be viewed by the RCC as an actual possession and when all the evidence is there, one is hard pressed to find a different conclusion.
    Thanks. Then I wonder, are there videos of the cases that were determined by the RCC to be actual cases of demonic possession? Are they available for independent scrutiny? Is there transparency in how the investigators ruled out other possible supernatural explanations such as reincarnation, telepathy, telekinesis, supernatural strength etc? (not to mention possible natural explanations) Otherwise it seems rather hand-wavy to me.
    Last edited by rett2; 04-08-2016 at 08:27 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rett2 View Post
    Thanks. Then I wonder, are there videos of the cases that were determined by the RCC to be actual cases of demonic possession? Are they available for independent scrutiny? Is there transparency in how the investigators ruled out other possible supernatural explanations such as reincarnation, telepathy, telekinesis, supernatural strength etc? (not to mention possible natural explanations) Otherwise it seems rather hand-wavy to me.
    I had the pleasure of speaking with an journalist that saw the evidence lockers when I was getting my Masters in Theology a couple of years ago.
    They are not available to the public and to get permission is a tad complicated and a long process BUT it can be done.
    You have to realize that the RCC doesn't care who believes or not and they are not in the business of proving the supernatural.
    The RCC has some very, very qualified scientists ( it has always had a history of that as you probably know) and they try to DISPROVE possession not prove it.
    The whole point of an investigation is to prove that it is NOT demonic possession.
    Of course the Church believes that it can and has happened BUT they don't go in trying to prove that it is, quite the contrary.
    The initial stages is always to find a natural, medical/scientific explanation.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #25
    Thanks for the interesting insider-view.

    What I still take away from it is that there seems to be an ideological wish in Christianity to believe in demonic possession, even if it's considered to be rare. Among other things this may be expressed in accusations against practices like Yoga as being demonic. Perhaps this mostly comes from evangelical Protestant groups.

    Something similar can perhaps be said of Buddhists, who may preferentially interpret unusual phenomena as signs of reincarnation.

  11. #26
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    I'm certain that there are all kinds of varied phenomena that are often lumped together and thought to be one thing, depending on whoever is interpreting what it is. For example, many so-called 'ghost hunters/investigators' automatically think that anything unusual in a 'paranormal' sense is either a 'ghost' (i.e., the spirit or consciousness of a deceased person or animal) or a demon. There are no other explanations/interpretations for them; they see everything as a 'black-and-white' or an 'either-or'.

    And yes, there are many scientifically explainable things that can be mistaken for 'paranormal' phenomena, including demonic possession.

    There are other things that definitely fall outside the scope of being scientifically verifiable. And many (most?) such things cannot be proven in a laboratory setting, because they do not happen on cue, and IME usually do not repeat themselves in the exact same way.

    As for reincarnation, IMO that's really not something that's 'out there'. I believe in it wholeheartedly due to some personal experiences. But IMO it isn't special. I also believe that everyone has been reincarnated, many times. Others will not agree, and that's fine, too. When a small child starts speaking a language fluently that he's never learned, or remembers things about a previous life that are researched and found to be true, even though he had no way of knowing about it, that could be due to reincarnation. But could it also be due to some connection to a 'non-physical information database' that they somehow involuntarily accessed? There are more things in creation than any of us can ever know.

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    There are other things that definitely fall outside the scope of being scientifically verifiable. And many (most?) such things cannot be proven in a laboratory setting, because they do not happen on cue, and IME usually do not repeat themselves in the exact same way.
    Makes sense. Some telepathy type events could depend on close ties between people, and be triggered by major life events, for example. The relevant variables aren't known and can't be controlled for in a lab.

    So basically this isn't amenable to scientific treatment (except insofar as scientific explanations may be able to help debunk some specific claims or expose poor reasoning). The best we can do is look at experience and try to reason in a rational way around those experiences. It's philosophy rather than science. Doesn't need to be "woo" as long as we aren't making exaggerated knowledge claims. And it doesn't have to be "just philosophizing" if it’s experientially based and part of a wholesome practice.

    As for reincarnation, IMO that's really not something that's 'out there'. I believe in it wholeheartedly due to some personal experiences. But IMO it isn't special. I also believe that everyone has been reincarnated, many times. Others will not agree, and that's fine, too. When a small child starts speaking a language fluently that he's never learned, or remembers things about a previous life that are researched and found to be true, even though he had no way of knowing about it, that could be due to reincarnation. But could it also be due to some connection to a 'non-physical information database' that they somehow involuntarily accessed? There are more things in creation than any of us can ever know.
    This also resonates with me. "Non-physical information database" isn't even an exotic idea in the west. The Platonic view of mathematical truth, for example, is such a non-physical database that we access (for those inclined to believe in it, which includes scientists and mathematicians). Even supposing reincarnation is real, perhaps that is basically a question of accessing data in that sort of a way. The Buddhist idea is that there is no individual self that reincarnates, instead the next life is the continuation of a changing process. It might be that personality traits, memories, tendencies come to a new body as a kind of accessing of data. The point here is just to emphasize that there are many possible interpretations of abnormal events and experiences.

    Where this intersects with the previous discussion on RCC and demonic possession is that hierarchical power structures sometimes want to enforce dogmas to shore up their power and authority. So they preferentially impose one interpretation on abnormal events. This can certainly also happen in Buddhism, at least in countries where Buddhism has been drawn into the process of national identity formation. I believe there are examples where this leads to exaggerated knowledge claims.
    Last edited by rett2; 04-10-2016 at 04:15 AM.

  13. #28
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    RE: Demonic possession and reincarnation.

    While the RCC and the vast majority of Christianity ( all of orthodox Christianity really) do NOT endorse the view of souls being reborn, there is no possible way that the two would be "confused" UNLESS the reincarnated soul was dangerous to the "soul holder" ( for lack of a better term) AND those around them WHILE displaying physical traits that can NOT be explained by reincarnation ( since reincarnation does NOT change physical features "all of a sudden").
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    RE: Demonic possession and reincarnation.

    While the RCC and the vast majority of Christianity ( all of orthodox Christianity really) do NOT endorse the view of souls being reborn, there is no possible way that the two would be "confused" UNLESS the reincarnated soul was dangerous to the "soul holder" ( for lack of a better term) AND those around them WHILE displaying physical traits that can NOT be explained by reincarnation ( since reincarnation does NOT change physical features "all of a sudden").
    Yeah, good point now that you mention it. For instance, what is called demonic possessions usually probably involve madness and dangerous behavior, while memories of past lives seem to occur in the benign context of everyday life (or in meditation settings). Also, I believe that belief in possession is common in many Buddhist contexts as well; the distinction perhaps being made by what sorts of thoughts and behaviors arise.
    Last edited by rett2; 04-11-2016 at 06:56 AM.

  15. #30
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    There are some belief systems that also invite possession. In Taiwan, I saw some groups who, during public ceremonies such as blessings, would supposedly invite certain deities to temporarily inhabit their bodies, and they would then do various stunts, such as beating their backs bloody with spiked objects swung on the ends of ropes, sticking long needles through one check and out the other, and etc., to demonstrate invulnerability. Often they would fall onto the ground convulsing. Now, whether or not the 'possession' was all an act, or if they believed in it but it was only mind over matter, or even real possession, I don't know. Much of it resembled 'Shen Da'. They did seem to recover quickly. I've seen similar behavior (without the self-abuse) in footage of some voodoo rituals.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 04-11-2016 at 08:29 AM.

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