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Thread: Exorcism

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by rett2 View Post
    Thanks for the interesting insider-view.

    What I still take away from it is that there seems to be an ideological wish in Christianity to believe in demonic possession, even if it's considered to be rare. Among other things this may be expressed in accusations against practices like Yoga as being demonic. Perhaps this mostly comes from evangelical Protestant groups.

    Something similar can perhaps be said of Buddhists, who may preferentially interpret unusual phenomena as signs of reincarnation.
    How is it ideological to specifically Christianity? Virtually every ancient culture and religious tradition believed in demonic possession/spirit possession.

    Quote Originally Posted by rett2 View Post
    Is there transparency in how the investigators ruled out other possible supernatural explanations such as reincarnation, telepathy, telekinesis, supernatural strength etc?
    From the point of view of main stream science, none of these things exist either, so what would be the point?
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    RE: Demonic possession and reincarnation.

    While the RCC and the vast majority of Christianity ( all of orthodox Christianity really) do NOT endorse the view of souls being reborn,
    You are correct that all modern organized Christianity disavows reincarnation, but it is interesting that Jesus considered John the Baptist to be the reincarnation of Elijah. Some of the gnostic sects of Christianity, pre Constantine, believed in reincarnation.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    You are correct that all modern organized Christianity disavows reincarnation, but it is interesting that Jesus considered John the Baptist to be the reincarnation of Elijah. Some of the gnostic sects of Christianity, pre Constantine, believed in reincarnation.
    No, Jesus saying the John was Elijah was not a statement of reincarnation ( no second temple Jew believed in reincarnation), but of prophetic lineage.
    Gnostic sects were/are heretical.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    You are correct that all modern organized Christianity disavows reincarnation, but it is interesting that Jesus considered John the Baptist to be the reincarnation of Elijah. Some of the gnostic sects of Christianity, pre Constantine, believed in reincarnation.
    Technically, Christianity revolves around the hope of direct reincarnation and return of the god.
    It also teaches of a life after death in a different kingdom. So, that pretty much fits with reincarnation.

    Early Christianity, the Essenes, Nasorenes, etc and their ilk were considered gnostics and this was so until tehy were no longer welcome in the synagogue because they were diverging too far from Judaism. Shortly after that bit of fall out, the Romans made it the state religion and things started looking up for Christians.

    By the time the Roman empire fell around 400 CE, Christianity was establishing a foothold in a great many places. By 1000 ce it was the reigning champion of organized religions in the known world as it was employed in the taming of the men of the north (not canadians).

    anyway ....
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  5. #35
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    Exorcism fascinates me

    My take on it is more practical perhaps because I do drug interventions and sometimes they get really weird, like the Exorcist. True, that's a chemically-induced possession, but some of the same religious/cultural techniques can still be healing. I've worked with Native American shamans and some devout Christians doing interventions, and as long as the patient has the same belief system, they can be effective (they can also be really annoying when the patient does NOT have share beliefs as they tend to be stubborn). But in my drug intervention work, I'm a pragmatist. If it works, I'm all for it.

    Also, I know a few Daoists that practice exorcism, which is my excuse for this thread. It's something I'd love to explore in a feature article. And that's not just because I love Mr. Vampire and the whole Kung Fu exorcist comedy genre.


    Here's the dark side of this:
    Hamas 'exorcism' ritual used to recruit child terrorists

    Islamic preachers use exorcism ritual to brainwash Gaza children, set them on the road to terrorism.

    By David Rosenberg
    First Publish: 4/11/2016, 8:25 PM



    Hamas has a new tactic for ensuring fidelity to its radical form of Islam and encouraging young Arabs to volunteer for terrorist actions against Israel – ritual exorcism.

    According to the Gatestone Institute, schools in Gaza have welcomed Islamic preachers from The Ship of Missionary Salvation, an organization supported by the Hamas-dominated Waqf Ministry.

    The preachers, who visit schools across Gaza, single out children for ritual exorcism, claiming they have been possessed by demon spirits.

    Students who are subjected to the ritual are “cleansed," but also find themselves pressured to continue to show signs of their “devotion” to radical Islam.

    Videos of such ritual exorcisms, such as the one seen above, have sent shockwaves through the Palestinian Authority, horrifying even many staunchly anti-Israel terror groups.

    The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine blasted the ritual as “inhumane” and called for an investigation of the practice.

    PLO spokeswoman Hanan Ashrawi also condemned the practice, saying that it highlighted the “reactionary nature” of Hamas.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  6. #36
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    I've heard a couple stories from people I know about a Taoist monk who was called on to perform exorcisms to clear local buildings (not people). Reportedly it worked.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    Technically, Christianity revolves around the hope of direct reincarnation and return of the god.
    It also teaches of a life after death in a different kingdom. So, that pretty much fits with reincarnation.

    Early Christianity, the Essenes, Nasorenes, etc and their ilk were considered gnostics and this was so until tehy were no longer welcome in the synagogue because they were diverging too far from Judaism. Shortly after that bit of fall out, the Romans made it the state religion and things started looking up for Christians.

    By the time the Roman empire fell around 400 CE, Christianity was establishing a foothold in a great many places. By 1000 ce it was the reigning champion of organized religions in the known world as it was employed in the taming of the men of the north (not canadians).

    anyway ....
    Resurrection is NOT reincarnation bro.
    I don't know of any versions of reincarnation in which the ORIGINAL body is resurrected.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    No, Jesus saying the John was Elijah was not a statement of reincarnation ( no second temple Jew believed in reincarnation), but of prophetic lineage.
    Gnostic sects were/are heretical.
    I accept that scripture is open to interpretation, but I think you'd have to perform mental gymnastics to get away from the implication of reincarnation from those verses. I think most Christians do.
    At any rate, Jesus certainly broke with Jewish tradition, enough so that they crucified him. He was harder on the Pharisees than any other group and he considered parts of the Mosanic Law to be immoral.

    I think it is likely that the historical Jesus/Yeshua was influenced by the Essenes. He clearly did not agree with the doctrine of the Pharisees or Sadducees. Gnostics may or may not have been heretical. We may never really have a clear picture of them, since they were persecuted, murdered and their books burned. One thing is for sure though, they predated what we now call "Orthodox" Christianity.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I accept that scripture is open to interpretation, but I think you'd have to perform mental gymnastics to get away from the implication of reincarnation from those verses. I think most Christians do.
    At any rate, Jesus certainly broke with Jewish tradition, enough so that they crucified him. He was harder on the Pharisees than any other group and he considered parts of the Mosanic Law to be immoral.

    I think it is likely that the historical Jesus/Yeshua was influenced by the Essenes. He clearly did not agree with the doctrine of the Pharisees or Sadducees. Gnostics may or may not have been heretical. We may never really have a clear picture of them, since they were persecuted, murdered and their books burned. One thing is for sure though, they predated what we now call "Orthodox" Christianity.
    The symbolism of the second coming of Elijah is a Jewish interpretation, not a Christian one.
    No jew expected Elijah to be reincarnated, case in point the account of the transfiguration where Elijah and Moses show up.
    No, I would not agree that gnosticism predated orthodox Christianity.
    The first generation and second generation Christians were, most definitely not gnostic.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Resurrection is NOT reincarnation bro.
    I don't know of any versions of reincarnation in which the ORIGINAL body is resurrected.
    Technically, according to the scripture, there won't be a resurrection so much as a return. Seeing as the body already ascended and will return, not resurrect as it's assumed that that already took place in regards to Jesus even though there is a strong argument that he never actually died on the cross by virtue of not being on it long enough for that to happen. But for believers, that is too provocative. For everyone else, that is reincarnation because the body is left behind, but a new life is promised. One can presume there will be some sort of vessel that will be available in said new life after death.

    I personally subscribe to an inevitable form of reincarnation in a more scientific sense and it's about the chemistry of matter, and the energy/matter interchange.

    there's two dictates in that regard.

    1. Matter is changed, energy is never lost
    2. All matter is formed, grows, faces entropy, is destroyed and then transformed.

    It may very well be possible that these processes which are the rules that bind us all in this world may have been misunderstood.

    Buddhism subscribes to the idea. But maintains that the consciousness is not carried forward, rather the energy and matter that was one being, becomes another and the process is repeated and repeated and repeated again until the being is freed from the cycle of birth, life and death and presumably goes and mingles with the greater universe.

    What I really believe is that concepts of god can mingle with scientific understanding. We can literally find out the true meaning of what is veiled by allegory and metaphor in the teachings of various masters throughout time.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    Technically, according to the scripture, there won't be a resurrection so much as a return. Seeing as the body already ascended and will return, not resurrect as it's assumed that that already took place in regards to Jesus even though there is a strong argument that he never actually died on the cross by virtue of not being on it long enough for that to happen. But for believers, that is too provocative. For everyone else, that is reincarnation because the body is left behind, but a new life is promised. One can presume there will be some sort of vessel that will be available in said new life after death.

    I personally subscribe to an inevitable form of reincarnation in a more scientific sense and it's about the chemistry of matter, and the energy/matter interchange.

    there's two dictates in that regard.

    1. Matter is changed, energy is never lost
    2. All matter is formed, grows, faces entropy, is destroyed and then transformed.

    It may very well be possible that these processes which are the rules that bind us all in this world may have been misunderstood.

    Buddhism subscribes to the idea. But maintains that the consciousness is not carried forward, rather the energy and matter that was one being, becomes another and the process is repeated and repeated and repeated again until the being is freed from the cycle of birth, life and death and presumably goes and mingles with the greater universe.

    What I really believe is that concepts of god can mingle with scientific understanding. We can literally find out the true meaning of what is veiled by allegory and metaphor in the teachings of various masters throughout time.
    I think to assume that roman soldiers were so incompetent as to not know if someone is dead is, well, a huge assumption.
    Add to that the account of Jesus actually being stabbed to confirm his death...Well...
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  12. #42
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    I personally don't think it's that cut and dried.
    The stabbing was to his lung, which bled and also released water.
    The dead don't bleed. So, there's that. Not only that, but it may have been superficial and for the benefit of the Sanhedrin so they could have their pound of flesh so to speak.
    Also, he was removed before sundown and was likely only on the cross for a few hours.

    I think personally that the whole thing can be reconciled against any of that.
    There doesn't need to be the magical or supernatural aspect tied to Jesus and the teachings he held should be the focus.
    I'm certainly no the only one who holds this view and there are people such as Bishop Spong who have ruminated on these points as well.
    My personal opinion is that Jesus doesn't need to be a magical being to be relevant throughout time. The Buddha is the same in my view.
    These two in particular provide us all with many places to start looking at our lives and actions.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    I personally don't think it's that cut and dried.
    The stabbing was to his lung, which bled and also released water.
    The dead don't bleed. So, there's that. Not only that, but it may have been superficial and for the benefit of the Sanhedrin so they could have their pound of flesh so to speak.
    Also, he was removed before sundown and was likely only on the cross for a few hours.

    I think personally that the whole thing can be reconciled against any of that.
    There doesn't need to be the magical or supernatural aspect tied to Jesus and the teachings he held should be the focus.
    I'm certainly no the only one who holds this view and there are people such as Bishop Spong who have ruminated on these points as well.
    My personal opinion is that Jesus doesn't need to be a magical being to be relevant throughout time. The Buddha is the same in my view.
    These two in particular provide us all with many places to start looking at our lives and actions.
    uh....the dead can bleed dude, especially when suspended ( ie: crucifixion).
    And one of the signs of "gravity bleeding" is water mixed with the blood.
    Any person experienced with sword and knife fighting knows that.
    of course a pathologist knows this too.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    I personally don't think it's that cut and dried.
    The stabbing was to his lung, which bled and also released water.
    The dead don't bleed. So, there's that. Not only that, but it may have been superficial and for the benefit of the Sanhedrin so they could have their pound of flesh so to speak.
    Also, he was removed before sundown and was likely only on the cross for a few hours.

    I think personally that the whole thing can be reconciled against any of that.
    There doesn't need to be the magical or supernatural aspect tied to Jesus and the teachings he held should be the focus.
    I'm certainly no the only one who holds this view and there are people such as Bishop Spong who have ruminated on these points as well.
    My personal opinion is that Jesus doesn't need to be a magical being to be relevant throughout time. The Buddha is the same in my view.
    These two in particular provide us all with many places to start looking at our lives and actions.
    I personally don't care for words like 'magical' or 'supernatural' to describe things that most of us cannot comprehend. IMO, yes, Jesus was a man, but also IMO, was a soul of such high spiritual attainment that he possessed siddhis. These abilities are not necessarily 'magic', though most people would probably think they are. There have been other people who possessed 'miraculous abilities', but those were never the goal, but rather a natural result of higher spiritual attainment or evolution. I'm not saying that Jesus had or didn't have such abilities, but IMO it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that he did. Perhaps as proof to his words?

    I don't know. Personally, I'm not a theologian. And I also don't personally take works like The Bible literally. I'm personally 'spiritual but not religious'. Many people, especially Christians, roll their eyes when they hear that, but that's what I am; they can deal with it or not. My experiences have shown me that God/Creator doesn't care what "-ism" one follows. There are far more possibilities in creation than any of us can ever know, and what we deem as 'impossible' may simply be things we've cut ourselves off from. Perhaps Jesus was trying to show a bit of what is within our own possibilities?
    Last edited by Jimbo; 04-13-2016 at 08:46 AM.

  15. #45
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    I am not a big fan of organized religion myself.
    Humans tend to have a "mob mentality" about things and organized anything tends to feed that.
    The human being, the singular person, is typically rational and understanding and spiritual BUT the group?
    Not so much.
    See, Christianity was never really meant to be an organized religion because, while it has doctrines and creeds to express it;s view, Christian are NOT to follow people or organizations or groubs BUt to follow One person ONLY, Jesus of Nazareth.

    I don't really debate what or who He is anymore because I have found that most that are not christian have already made up their minds one way or another.
    Last edited by sanjuro_ronin; 04-13-2016 at 09:32 AM.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

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