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Thread: Exorcism

  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    The symbolism of the second coming of Elijah is a Jewish interpretation, not a Christian one.
    No jew expected Elijah to be reincarnated, case in point the account of the transfiguration where Elijah and Moses show up.
    No, I would not agree that gnosticism predated orthodox Christianity.
    The first generation and second generation Christians were, most definitely not gnostic.
    I'm not condoning any particular belief, just pointing out things that Jesus said, that many people seem to be very uncomfortable with.
    John the Baptist was executed before the transfiguration on the mount, so even if that is taken literally, it doesn't prove anything one way or another. My main point being that Jesus DID NOT conform to orthodox Jewish thought, even though it was his culture and religion. He had some very different ideas.

    I would agree that the Gnostic were most likely not of the first church established by Jesus and the apostles, but there are certainly Gnostic themes in the synoptic gospels and some Gnostic literature is as old as the first century. The Roman Catholic Orthodoxy did not exist before the Council of Nicaea, Gnostic Christian practice is older than this.

    Frankly, there is no existing church which truly carries on directly from Christ. Everything is a blend of various religions and cultures, like the so called Orthodox churches, or a reconstruction, as the Protestant churches.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    How is it ideological to specifically Christianity? Virtually every ancient culture and religious tradition believed in demonic possession/spirit possession.
    Christianity engaged in aggressive proselytizing and missionary work, as a supremacist religion used to dominate other cultures and ultimately further the goals of colonialization. (unlike many folk religions and cultures that were assimilatory and could coexist with others). As part of that, Christianity declared other religions and practices to be the work of the devil, and its view on possession could fit into that ideology. I didn't claim that belief in possession is unique to Christianity, but rather was focusing on how it seems to be used in this particular ideological way. A latter day example could be when some churches declare yoga or meditation to be satanic.

    I don't mean to reduce Christianity only to this aspect of it's practice, but this aspect does exist. Also, other religions in history have declared competitor faiths to be demonic.

    From the point of view of main stream science, none of these things exist either, so what would be the point?
    The point has to do with how, if you set science aside, people interpret "supernatural" experiences in accordance with preexisting beliefs. For example the great christian mystics had ecstatic visions that they interpreted as "seeing god" or meeting other figures from their religion. Another religion might say that had entered a powerful meditative state but that any visions they had are just expressions of their conditioning. I was wondering how the RCC went about making themselves sure that of all the possible "supernatural" explanations, it just had to be "demonic possession" (the one that fits their world-view best, for instance by recognizing the existence of demons that intervene in the world).
    Last edited by rett2; 04-13-2016 at 11:43 PM.

  3. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    My main point being that Jesus DID NOT conform to orthodox Jewish thought, even though it was his culture and religion. He had some very different ideas.
    there was a diverse flowering of competing jewish sects and there was no unity in judaism at that time. the big factions were mentioned in the bible. just a few hundred years before the jews were still polytheists.
    jesus was part of the teacher guru trend that became rabbinic tradition, and part of the miracle worker trend, which were very popular at the time.
    Last edited by bawang; 04-13-2016 at 11:43 PM.

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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    there was a diverse flowering of competing jewish sects and there was no unity in judaism at that time. the big factions were mentioned in the bible. just a few hundred years before the jews were still polytheists.
    jesus was part of the teacher guru trend that became rabbinic tradition, and part of the miracle worker trend, which were very popular at the time.
    Indeed, there were 3 primary sects:
    Essenes, Sadducees and Pharisees and of these, only the Pharisees survived the destruction of the temple in 70 Ad.
    Sure there was some crossover between expression of the Hebrew faith BUT there were some views that simple did not mesh together ( like the sadducees rejection of the resurrection).

    Jesus probably was most identifiable with the Pharisees, probably why He targeted them the most ( they were the most influential and they should have been doing a better job).
    Jesus' proclamation that the Kingdom of God was here, went directly against the temple system and that is what, in terms of orthodox judaism, was the real issue they had with him.
    Anyway, I digress.

    In terms of exorcisms ( all Abrahamic faiths accept the possibility of demonic possession by the way), the supernatural element MUST be there for it to be recognised as a possession and by that, like i mentioned before, I mean evidence that can NOT be explained by medical science and not just ONE pieces of evidence but multiple.
    And example would be a person being able to do a feats of strength that PHYSICALLY are not possible for them AND having knowledge they simply can NOT have AND being able to speak in languages they can NOT know AND, well you get the point and the point is NOT that they must show SOME of these signs, they most shoe ALL of them and more.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I am not a big fan of organized religion myself.
    Humans tend to have a "mob mentality" about things and organized anything tends to feed that.
    The human being, the singular person, is typically rational and understanding and spiritual BUT the group?
    Not so much.
    See, Christianity was never really meant to be an organized religion because, while it has doctrines and creeds to express it;s view, Christian are NOT to follow people or organizations or groubs BUt to follow One person ONLY, Jesus of Nazareth.

    I don't really debate what or who He is anymore because I have found that most that are not christian have already made up their minds one way or another.
    Great points. Although I no longer follow any religion organized or not, I do respect those who do seek to follow the true, original spirit and truths of the teachings as opposed to dogma.

    Not really possession-related, but there are MANY self-proclaimed 'Christians' who rant all day and night about 'the devil', 'Satan', etc. They claim to be 'people of God, yet they never see God anywhere, only Satan. Which leads me to believe that such fundamentalist 'Christians' are probably more satanic than most satanists. When it comes to one's own spiritual perceptions, one perceives what one chooses to focus one's energy on. It really becomes a matter of, whatever dominates your spiritual perception is really a reflection of yourself and what's going on within you, as opposed to 'them' or 'out there'. Some become so obsessed with 'the devil' that they're severely mentally disturbed.

    As for organized religions, once they become so, IMO, there is always twisting of the original truths to manipulate the masses to follow the agendas of the manipulators (those in positions of religious authority). Too many people willingly surrender their own power to religious authority, and "Absolute power corrupts absolutely".
    Last edited by Jimbo; 04-14-2016 at 08:29 AM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Great points. Although I no longer follow any religion organized or not, I do respect those who do seek to follow the true, original spirit and truths of the teachings as opposed to dogma.

    Not really possession-related, but there are MANY self-proclaimed 'Christians' who rant all day and night about 'the devil', 'Satan', etc. They claim to be 'people of God, yet they never see God anywhere, only Satan. Which leads me to believe that such fundamentalist 'Christians' are probably more satanic than most satanists. When it comes to one's own spiritual perceptions, one perceives what one chooses to focus one's energy on. It really becomes a matter of, whatever dominates your spiritual perception is really a reflection of yourself and what's going on within you, as opposed to 'them' or 'out there'. Some become so obsessed with 'the devil' that they're severely mentally disturbed.

    As for organized religions, once they become so, IMO, there is always twisting of the original truths to manipulate the masses to follow the agendas of the manipulators (those in positions of religious authority). Too many people willingly surrender their own power to religious authority, and "Absolute power corrupts absolutely".
    Agreed on most points.
    The issue with Christians overly "preoccupied" with satan is that, well, people are people.
    Some people like to feel important ( "I know the real reason...satan"), some like to be able to blame something/someone ( satan) and others just like the whole supernatural thing.
    Don't get me wrong, one can NOT be a Christian and NOT believe in the supernatural and yes, the bible ( both OT and NT) is clear that there are bad divine beings ( bad "angels" and demons) that are active in cause crap.
    The understanding that there are supernatural beings that do NOT have our best interest at heart is at the very core of the Abrahamic religions.
    I don't know WHY some people get OVERLY obsessed with the satan ( and it is THE satan since the term is a title rather than a proper name) BUt it is understandable.

    Most don't know that, according to the OT (Genesis and Deuteronomy) God divided the world and allowed other lesser divine beings ( Sons of God) to rule these nations ( 70 at the time, though the number may be less literal and more figurative) to rule over those nations ( God kept what would be israel, it didn't exist at the time of allotment, for Himself), so the view of the world be under the control of "other gods" or demons is not original to Christianity.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  7. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    there was a diverse flowering of competing jewish sects and there was no unity in judaism at that time. the big factions were mentioned in the bible. just a few hundred years before the jews were still polytheists.
    jesus was part of the teacher guru trend that became rabbinic tradition, and part of the miracle worker trend, which were very popular at the time.
    Orthodox Judaism pretty much implies the Pharisees...they more or less won out between the competing sects. Polytheism still existed among the Jewish people even at the time of Jesus, but of course that was not compatible with mainstream YHWH worship.

    There were many other wandering teachers, but obviously the lasting impact of Jesus is hard to compare with most of the others. It's incredible really, how the teachings of the gurus/prophets of the major religions are still so pertinent in world events, thousands of years later.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  8. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Not really possession-related, but there are MANY self-proclaimed 'Christians' who rant all day and night about 'the devil', 'Satan', etc. They claim to be 'people of God, yet they never see God anywhere, only Satan. Which leads me to believe that such fundamentalist 'Christians' are probably more satanic than most satanists. When it comes to one's own spiritual perceptions, one perceives what one chooses to focus one's energy on. It really becomes a matter of, whatever dominates your spiritual perception is really a reflection of yourself and what's going on within you, as opposed to 'them' or 'out there'. Some become so obsessed with 'the devil' that they're severely mentally disturbed.
    There's a lot of truth here, but contrast the attitude you speak of with Jesus's constant motif of the golden rule and the goodness of the Father. Focusing on the darker aspects seems to be a common theme with humanity.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by rett2 View Post
    Christianity engaged in aggressive proselytizing and missionary work, as a supremacist religion used to dominate other cultures and ultimately further the goals of colonialization.
    I think that is an unfair assessment. Yes, proselytizing has always been part of the religion, but Christianity does not equal the Holy Roman Empire or other political factions that used Christianity as a tool of suppression or empire building. Obviously a lot of horrible things have been done in the name of Christianity, and other religions, but Christ taught freewill and never advocated violence or using religion for political purposes. Jesus said to Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight." Paul wrote "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal." That is the original Christian way of proselytizing, preach the gospel to them that will hear you and move on from them that don't receive you. A lot of people used religion and force as a means to their own ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by rett2 View Post
    (unlike many folk religions and cultures that were assimilatory and could coexist with others).
    Actually, a lot of folk religions and cultures were assimilated into Christianity. The Romans had a long history of incorporating gods and mythologies from conquered peoples into their own belief systems.

    Quote Originally Posted by rett2 View Post
    As part of that, Christianity declared other religions and practices to be the work of the devil, and its view on possession could fit into that ideology. I didn't claim that belief in possession is unique to Christianity, but rather was focusing on how it seems to be used in this particular ideological way. A latter day example could be when some churches declare yoga or meditation to be satanic.
    A lot of religious people declare anything they don't understand to be evil, or "the devil." That is why I would rather form an opinion based on the scriptures of a religion then on the behavior of its followers. To answer your question, no doubt, at times, demonic possession has been used to explain the unfamiliar, or as an excuse to burn a witch at the stake. I personally feel that mentality is the antithesis of the teachings of Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by rett2 View Post
    I don't mean to reduce Christianity only to this aspect of it's practice, but this aspect does exist. Also, other religions in history have declared competitor faiths to be demonic.
    The gods of one culture become the devils of another. It's a tradition as old as religion itself.



    Quote Originally Posted by rett2 View Post
    The point has to do with how, if you set science aside, people interpret "supernatural" experiences in accordance with preexisting beliefs. For example the great christian mystics had ecstatic visions that they interpreted as "seeing god" or meeting other figures from their religion. Another religion might say that had entered a powerful meditative state but that any visions they had are just expressions of their conditioning.
    I actually think there is much more in common than most will admit among the major religions. The lens of culture and the different terminologies and descriptions of ideas makes people denounce the same ideas they promote, when they hear them explained in a foreign way.



    Quote Originally Posted by rett2 View Post
    I was wondering how the RCC went about making themselves sure that of all the possible "supernatural" explanations, it just had to be "demonic possession" (the one that fits their world-view best, for instance by recognizing the existence of demons that intervene in the world).
    I'll have to leave that to SJ or others, I have no idea how the RCC inner circle establishes their criteria...it is a very interesting subject though.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    Obviously a lot of horrible things have been done in the name of Christianity
    in the bible the jews are the supreme race of people who are superior over all others and are destined to rule the world from mount zion. countries that attack them are prophesized to be punished. germany killed 6 million jews far surpassing all the countries in the bible. 90% of jewish population in europe is gone.

    the act of trying to wipe out jews, replacing image of jews with europeans as gods chosen people, splintering of rome into modern successor kingdoms all correlate strongly with antichrist and the beast.

    doing horrible things in the name of god is the ultimate unforgivable act of blasphemy against the holy spirit which cannot be forgiven through intermediary by christ as explained in revelations.

    if you are european it is in your best interest for god to not be real.
    Last edited by bawang; 04-14-2016 at 11:51 PM.

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    Orthodox Judaism pretty much implies the Pharisees...they more or less won out between the competing sects. Polytheism still existed among the Jewish people even at the time of Jesus, but of course that was not compatible with mainstream YHWH worship.

    There were many other wandering teachers, but obviously the lasting impact of Jesus is hard to compare with most of the others. It's incredible really, how the teachings of the gurus/prophets of the major religions are still so pertinent in world events, thousands of years later.
    People tend to confuse current monotheistic views with that the people of the ANE thought of monotheistic.
    Monotheistic jews would have regard ONE creator God, YHWH, and any number of lesser gods ( the Sons of God).
    The notion of there being only ONE God ( as opposed to One God to worship or One supreme God) would have been totally alien to ANE Jews.
    The bible is clear that not only did other God exist BUT that the nations of the world ( other than Israel) were given up to them because they chose to worship them than YHWH.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  12. #57
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    Lots of horrible things were done under the excuse/disguise of Christianity, just like any other religion OR ideology.
    The one constant with bad things being done is that people do them.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  13. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    People tend to confuse current monotheistic views with that the people of the ANE thought of monotheistic.
    Monotheistic jews would have regard ONE creator God, YHWH, and any number of lesser gods ( the Sons of God).
    The notion of there being only ONE God ( as opposed to One God to worship or One supreme God) would have been totally alien to ANE Jews.
    The bible is clear that not only did other God exist BUT that the nations of the world ( other than Israel) were given up to them because they chose to worship them than YHWH.
    In the early days of Judaism that may have been the case, but after YHWH worship was firmly established, ALL other gods were considered false gods.
    The scriptures are very explicit on this.

    I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

    That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  14. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    in the bible the jews are the supreme race of people who are superior over all others and are destined to rule the world
    This belief was/is prevalent over a great many cultures. It is hardly unique to the Jews.

    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    if you are european it is in your best interest for god to not be real.
    "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  15. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    This belief was/is prevalent over a great many cultures. It is hardly unique to the Jews.
    yeah but if you believe in jewish religion and read their book then you have to believe they are superior. you cant pick and choose
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
    why would jew god give euros a free pass for killing and oppressing jews for 2000 years?
    Last edited by bawang; 04-15-2016 at 03:41 PM.

    25th generation inner door disciple of Chen Style Practical Wombat Method
    Officially certified by Ethiopian Orthodox patriarch Abune Mathias
    grandmaster instructor of Wombat Combat™®LLC Practical Wombat Method. international academy retreat

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