Sifting through the Sands

[PalmStriker]

Sifting through the sands of an old thread I thought I might isolate some posts that seem to be some direct insight into the conditioning one might have undertaken in the TCMA practice of Bil Gee training of thrusting/darting fingers. Here are quotes from one of the forum members who so kindly offered first hand experience from a time when information of lineage practice/technique was closely guarded and unavailable to the public domain.
Lee Chiang Po
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When I was a young man, I would use a large box of loose sand for training my hands. I would spear my fingers into the sand box in an effort to drive them as deeply into the sand as possible. At first the fingers will try to turn in every direction. Eventually, the hand strengthens and learns to align itself so that it has stability and penetration. Your hands will become extremely tough and take some really blows. It will not injure your hands or your eyes. Targets for Bil Jee are the eyes, the throat, the face and sides of the head and neck, the arm pits, the groin, and the liver and the spleen. By groin I am not refering to the testicles, but the crease from the hip bone to the pelvic bridge. This area is just loaded with nerves and large blood vains, and a strong bil jee to the groin can prove fatal. The throat is a good target, and it will drop an opponent instantly. But if you are not careful you can collapse the wind pipe and kill the person.
You really do not have to abuse your hands in order to train them to become serious weapons. Just consistancy in your training of them. Use loose sand.
The way you use the hand is to use the 2 middle fingers as the main spear point with the little finger and the first finger as a brace for the middle 2. And of course you know how to roll the hand at the wrist on impact.

[PalmStriker]

Lee Chiang Po
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I can see where a person would think it is fantasy, but it is really not. Bil Gee was not taught to just anyone. It requires a lot of discipline, and a lot of training. The hands are the weakest part of the body. I can control anyone if I can get hold of just one of his hands. It can be balled up and used as a club, and if you train it right and with conviction you can develop it into a real weapon. The use of the hand must be specialized in that manner, so that it can be utilyzed for that purpose. As I stated in an earlier post that when you first start to train the hands they will lack the stiffness and stability to make a good weapon. The fingers will try to go out in just about every direction for a while. Eventually the hand develops the stability to remain stiff and follow through. You can then move to harder surfaces with less give. You would be completely surprised at just how hard your hands can get, and even without causing injury to them.
I would never spar anyone in such a manner. If the person was a friend or training associate I would not be able to justify such a thing. It would be criminal, and show total disrespect for his well being. That is why the dummy and the pads. As I felt that my hands were able to handle the sand well, I graduated to small pea gravel. I went through the same thing with it as with the sand. But it makes the hands really stiff and strong. I did this because even though I worked as a printer for most of my life, I made a good part of my living by the use of my fighting skills. Fighting skills are greatly enhanced if you can develop your hands into strong weapons.

[PalmStriker]

I agree that it is not about finger strikes, but finger strikes are a part of the Bil Gee system. And in order to apply them in a meaningful manner, they do need to be developed just like striking with the fist against firm surfaces. And to be sure, delivered against the throat or eyes, and even against some of the other more delicate areas of the body, they can be very injurous to an opponent. More so than the fist. Ignoring the finger strikes or deleting them from your training is probably a mistake. It is part of the Bil Gee form for a good reason, and the founders must have felt that it was a valuable part of the system.
On the other hand, I find the finger strikes to be well documented in the first part of the Bil Gee form. I can think of nothing that I would use such a wrist block or cover up for. This has to be a simple difference in lineage maybe? I have to say that I am not acquainted with very many WC people, but of those that I am acquainted with, the Bil Gee hands were developed into strong stabbing weapons. Developed also is the grip of the fingers of both hands. This is for grabbing tender flesh or tearing off of some extremeties. Particularly around the face and head. The grip is also good for when you pull an opponent into you and off his balance. An example of this is that rather than having to wrap the hand around an arm or wrist in order to jerk him off balance, you simply grag the flesh of the arm and jerk. Or any fleshy surface that you can touch. It is called the hand dragon, or dragon hand. I never did quite understand that part of it.

[PalmStriker]

Lee Chiang Po
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For anyone that does not fully understand the application of the Bil Gee finger strikes, I will give you a description of how I do it.
The first finger is not based. Like the thumb, it is not in alignment with the forearm. The 2 middle fingers are, and the little finger is way too short to apply. It and the first finger can then be used to brace the center 2 fingers. The hand is not held straight and rigid as this would make the contact point the center finger tip. It will break if jammed back with no place to go. The 2 center fingers are not even. Still the middle finger is longer. You can hold the hand straight, then sort of angle the fingers toward the little fingers direction. Until the 2 middle fingers are near even. This gives you a supported striking point. Also, the slight curve or angle of the fingers will cause the hand to collapse to the side if really strong resistance is met. If you stab into a fleshy part of the body, the hand being well developed for the purpose, will press right on into the soft tissue until it strikes bone or something, then will break over rather than jamming the fingers back into the hand. And if you have used the sand and pea gravel methods of developing the hand for this purpose, you can strike with tremendous force without self injury. However, there is always a chance of injuring ones self. But that can happen with a fist strike or even an elbow strike.

[PalmStriker]

What is the diference between a Spearhand and the Wing Chun Bil Jee Spearing Fingers ? What I mean is other Kung Fu styles use the Spearhand but they form it differently .

I have seen it done in Karate too. But again it looked different to me. I am not familiar with the methods of other styles. I have learned to do it different ways though, and at least one other way works well to avoid finger injury. It does not apply as much power.
I learned it from a Japanese man that taught me Jujitsu. The hand weapons are part of the traditional Jujitsu system too. I would draw the hand into a sort of cup position so that the fingers would be fairly even at the tips. The 3 longest fingers. I would strike sort of like a large bird pecking, and curl the fingers into the target. The hand would strike like a palm strike and on contact would roll into a finger stab. It is very effective, but it is not even close to the WC Bil Gee strikes.
As for Tan Sao, I have not actually seen it applied outside of WC. I would imagine that should it be a part of another system that it might differ in centerline application. Tan Sao always applies on center line. You have to shift or turn slightly to apply it on center line sometimes, but it gives you more power in order to deflect a strong fist attack as well as taking you out of the direct line of fire. To me, anything outside of that is not really Tan Sao.

[PalmStriker]

Lee Chiang Po
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When I was in my first training years, I was shown many different techniques that are no longer of value because of our changed world. And because we can not see the future, it was commonly considered that what we did at the time would continue to be what we would do years later. But as we all know, this is not the case. I was told never to teach outside of family, and if I did, not outside the Chinese community. I have kept my word on that. Bil Gee was not taught to me for several years, and I was told many times why it should not be taught to people outside of our own. Along with learning it comes a concept for it's use. And it was also expected that in order to learn it you would have to train it, and this required that you train the hands. You don't have to make crooked stubs of your hands in order to use it efficiently, but you do need to make the hands strong, otherwise you will not be able to make it work for you.
I think the main reason for not teaching it to just anyone is that in doing so you remain forever responsible for what they do with it. That would not even enter into the thinking here in this country today as long as money is paid.
There is concern over using finger strikes against someone that's fighting back with you. First off, this is a fear that comes from not knowing it's limitations to begin with. Like many other techniques, you do not stand off and jab at a moving target. I will say however that if you are close enough to hit me, then I am close enough to hit you back. And rather than try to hit a moving target you use it as a follow up to another entry technique or attack. If you can trap an arm and move an opponent off balance for even a split second you can then move right in and strike targets accurately. If you are in your center line you are close enough that you are not striking all that far, so accuracy is not that difficult.
For those that choose not to train it or even to recognize it, that is ok. In these times it is not a necessity anyway. Most fighting is done in sparing, which is really fantasy fighting, and in this type of fighting you don't really need it or most likely shouldn't use it. You wouldn't shoot or stab your training partner, so why crush his windpipe or put out his eyes?

[PalmStriker]

Bil Jee Form Set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kz56KyQsz4

[PalmStriker]

Wooden Dummy Set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6Vjn8QeEtA

[wckf92]

Awesome post Palmstriker.
Finger training is still closely held IMO...took me years to be able to finally get introduced to the process and the methods to develop them.
Thanks!

[wckf92]

...rather than having to wrap the hand around an arm or wrist in order to jerk him off balance, you simply grab the flesh of the arm and jerk. Or any fleshy surface that you can touch. It is called the hand dragon, or dragon hand. I never did quite understand that part of it.

Here is a good example...

[PalmStriker]

Hey, f92 ! Yeah, you will hear of the finger strike mentioned in lineage introduction such as YKS but no real details about the specific Wing Chun school training practices. I really don't think the last Masters who learned/trained this art (Masters born in the Late 1800's) passed this training on to very many disciples. Emphasis on fist boxing and WC sport boxing is where WC has been headed after the style left the Mainland and there is no demand for this skill set in general. The end result of the conditioning is different than some of the other styles of iron skills conditioning for finger strength, etc, as the practitioner is being careful not to diminish dexterity and fine motor skills in the hands as opposed to the end product of some of the breaking arts.

[PalmStriker]

Also: From another thread that I will post here.
Lee Chiang Po
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I have had my hands crushed and broken several times, leaving my right hand unable to make a fist. However, I can still strike with the fist without balling it into a fist, and I have developed it for bil gi strikes. My left hand is strong and I did develop the strength in it, but the right hand is much stronger and harder. As a young person I used the sand box a lot. Stabbing the hand into the sand as hard as you can does not injure the tips of the fingers, nor does it interfere with the flow of chi. The crushing and breaking did interfere with the flow. At first the hand would collapse and the fingers would split off in every direction. It took work, but eventually I could slam the hand half way to the elbow and the hand would maintain it's structure. It does toughen the tips of the fingers, but not to the point of destroying feel and dexterity. With my right hand, which hasn't done the sand box in over 40 years, I can stab holes in your face. The middle and the one below it make the contact, while the index and pinky brace them.
You don't have to destroy otherwise good hands simply to make them stronger. A friend that worked with the local police dept. cast a block of balistic jell and we stuffed it into a wall bag. Punching it was just the right feel, and there is no real need to beat the knuckles until they fracture to make them stronger. You can get carried away with this stuff if you are not real careful. http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...ng+chun+combat

[wckf92]

Hey, f92 ! Yeah, you will hear of the finger strike mentioned in lineage introduction such as YKS but no real details about the specific Wing Chun school training practices. I really don't think the last Masters who learned/trained this art (Masters born in the Late 1800's) passed this training on to very many disciples. Emphasis on fist boxing and WC sport boxing is where WC has been headed after the style left the Mainland and there is no demand for this skill set in general. The end result of the conditioning is different than some of the other styles of iron skills conditioning for finger strength, etc, as the practitioner is being careful not to diminish dexterity and fine motor skills in the hands as opposed to the end product of some of the breaking arts.

YKS finger conditioning eh? Cool!
I read through all the posts you posted...interesting stuff. Some methods I hadn't heard of before, but same end-state. The key (IMHO) is to have the discipline to do this sort of thing (whichever method) on a regular basis i.e. daily and to keep it up until your goal is reached. Most don't want to do such a thing (for fingers). I enjoy it, and continue conditioning even today. It's a journey.

[PalmStriker]

YKS finger conditioning eh? Cool!
I read through all the posts you posted...interesting stuff. Some methods I hadn't heard of before, but same end-state. The key (IMHO) is to have the discipline to do this sort of thing (whichever method) on a regular basis i.e. daily and to keep it up until your goal is reached. Most don't want to do such a thing (for fingers). I enjoy it, and continue conditioning even today. It's a journey.

Well, I've read from sites about Master Yuen Kay Shan's abilities and he only had taken on one disciple, Sum Nung who learned everything from YKS. But that would have all been in-house and I don't know if any of that, along with the use of darts, is trained in the lineage today. Those days are a hundred years gone. http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/...e01_intro.html

[wckf92]

Well, I've read from sites about Master Yuen Kay Shan's abilities and he only had taken on one disciple, Sum Nung who learned everything from YKS. But that would have all been in-house and I don't know if any of that, along with the use of darts, is trained in the lineage today. Those days are a hundred years gone. http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/...e01_intro.html

Too bad...would love to hear more about YKS (or his brother?) and their throwing darts...finger training, knives, etc. Very interesting stuff!

Sent you a PM...