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Thread: Secrets

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    To me, secret is the "most effective method to solve a certain problem".

    There are some secrets in CMA. If you don't know, you just don't know. For example, what's the best counter when someone drags your arm, moves you in circle, and tries to move toward your back?

    Nice one John. Yes I know the wrestling equivalent response and yes it is a true/false with what you know equals what you can stop

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    To me, secret is the "most effective method to solve a certain problem".

    There are some secrets in CMA. If you don't know, you just don't know. For example, what's the best counter when someone drags your arm, moves you in circle, and tries to move toward your back?

    Nice post.

    I don't know what is the best counter to that, but I do have counters to similar attacks/moves, which I'm sure would be very different from your own.

    My own definition of 'secrets' in CMA means secret within the system or even individual school. Is the attack/counter in your video clip commonly taught and practiced in your own school, or Shuai Jiao in general? If so, it might not be a secret within your system, even if it's unknown to people outside of your system. To outsiders it would be a secret.

    Another example might be when many people think of CLF, they think it's basically wild, swinging punches involving little or no skill that are wide open to counters. An outsider might be unaware that CLF also uses many linear attacks, and short, close-in movements; nor be aware how those circular strikes are set up to work. To a non-CLF person, these things may be unknown and thus 'secret', but they might be common knowledge to many or most CLF fighters. Unless they're purposely hidden from some students in a particular school and taught/practiced by only a chosen few.

    Sorry if I took any discussion away from Wing Chun, but in actuality it's really not; the very same points could apply to WC or to any MA.

  3. #18
    John is the man to ask about things.

    Jimbo is the man to ask about other things.

    I can tell you how to take a beating. So I recommend them !

    I think it is a GREAT thing when people of different methods come together and share. The worst that can happen is you might make a friend. When was the last time anyone did that ? **** secrets !
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 11-10-2015 at 09:03 PM.

  4. #19
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    Ok advanced techniques one category maybe. Short cut you to invincibility no but how about a more reasonable goal of short cut to good foundation?
    Sure, we talking a physical or mental thing here?

    I also agree boxerbilly s post touched on a culture of less or no secret training but didn't know how to quantify or categorize. Boxing openness has closed training for fighters so fight strategy and strengths are masked but the 6 punches and basics are open
    Well strategy is just that, strategy.
    Its just an extension of the punches, defense and footwork.

    I guess you could call that a secret, but that being the case, does that make anything you dont know as a practitioner a "secret"
    Where do you draw the line??

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Sure, we talking a physical or mental thing here?



    Well strategy is just that, strategy.
    Its just an extension of the punches, defense and footwork.

    I guess you could call that a secret, but that being the case, does that make anything you dont know as a practitioner a "secret"
    Where do you draw the line??
    Share the secrets. The worst that happens is it makes the next generation better than us. How much was lost in arts because the guy died before he decided to share it ?
    All secrets are probably going to be brutally hard work so if fear keeps one from sharing, you really have little to worry about. How many left that do that ?

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    So,

    After a very enlightening weekend, I've been deeply considering secrets and wing chun.
    Some say there are no secrets in wing chun, others have a different perspective.

    I am forming my opinion and wanted to get the community's input.

    Thoughts?

    In the wing chun I have experienced there usually aren't secrets in terms of most students being taught fake rubbish with the real stuff being kept for the inner circle students. If there is then run away, it is a marketing scheme or something you will waste too much time and money on. Not worth it. I have a bit of experience in some other southern chinese MA that were a bit more like this than wing chun. After a while you realise it is a waste of time and that there are easier ways. I think wing chun is unusual in that the cultural component is quite small

    Of course there are better and worse wing chun groups, teaching methods, training methodologies. There is proximity to the guy who is thinking up new stuff, and quality of understanding the original ideas. There is access to better fighters vs hobby people. There are elements of time spent and trust. In some cases financial or time commitments that need to be made. In some cases language and cultural commitments need to be made. All of these factors mean that there is a large variation in terms of the quality of teaching and learning that is available to any random person. Obviously quality varies massively.

    As a beginning student that nobody knows, you are unlikely to get hold of any quality written or video material until you demonstrate a commitment. You are unlikely to get more than standard answers to technical questions you ask. As you spend more time and people get to know and trust you then of course this changes. I think this is the case for any skill or knowledge held by a small group of people. It is natural.

  7. #22
    Hi Guy,

    Not in boxing and wrestling. ITF most guys were open. It really depended who you asked stuff to. Some guys were ****s. Others were like, well it is kind of early but this is how you do it. Isshin Ryu had a lot of guy full of ****. But the head guy was very open to showing you anything if you asked. You may not get what he told you though. To early.

    edit, no boxing and wrestling had ****s too. Yeah, there were guys that would not talk to anyone they did not like. You might not even have done nothing , they just did not like anyone. Small clique guys. Maybe it is just personality ? I always had friends in all sorts of cliques. I was weird. I was a jock that hung out with stoners and loved the smart geeks. I had all sorts of friends. A main group but we were open. Anyone was good by us. We did not like bullies. If a guy did not want to fight, leave him alone.
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 11-11-2015 at 07:42 AM.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Sure, we talking a physical or mental thing here?



    Well strategy is just that, strategy.
    Its just an extension of the punches, defense and footwork.

    I guess you could call that a secret, but that being the case, does that make anything you dont know as a practitioner a "secret"
    Where do you draw the line??
    Physical or mental could be either with a good teacher. I remember at a conference getting a golf lesson on the swing analyzer. One physical detail - straighten my left leg earlier - decreased spin on the driver and improved distance by 20 yds. That was a secret to me before.

    Boxing strategy has secrets. Floyds d for example nobody has figured it out so he must have secrets. At least from what I've seen people don't face him the first time and say I've seen all that before. Roger probably has training secrets he doesn't let out for Floyd. Even in an open environment like boxing

    Anyway just kicking ideas around. This is a pretty good discussion.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    In the wing chun I have experienced there usually aren't secrets in terms of most students being taught fake rubbish with the real stuff being kept for the inner circle students. If there is then run away, it is a marketing scheme or something you will waste too much time and money on. Not worth it. I have a bit of experience in some other southern chinese MA that were a bit more like this than wing chun. After a while you realise it is a waste of time and that there are easier ways. I think wing chun is unusual in that the cultural component is quite small
    Aha another reason for secrets. Film flam artistry where someone without real skills and knowledge fakes people into thinking they have it by secrets. This reason is certainly on the darker side of humanity.

    Of course there are better and worse wing chun groups, teaching methods, training methodologies. There is proximity to the guy who is thinking up new stuff, and quality of understanding the original ideas. There is access to better fighters vs hobby people. There are elements of time spent and trust. In some cases financial or time commitments that need to be made. In some cases language and cultural commitments need to be made. All of these factors mean that there is a large variation in terms of the quality of teaching and learning that is available to any random person. Obviously quality varies massively.

    As a beginning student that nobody knows, you are unlikely to get hold of any quality written or video material until you demonstrate a commitment. You are unlikely to get more than standard answers to technical questions you ask. As you spend more time and people get to know and trust you then of course this changes. I think this is the case for any skill or knowledge held by a small group of people. It is natural.
    All distinct reasons for secrets some to do with quality others to do with time in an art and family.

  10. #25
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    Physical or mental could be either with a good teacher.
    True

    I remember at a conference getting a golf lesson on the swing analyzer. One physical detail - straighten my left leg earlier - decreased spin on the driver and improved distance by 20 yds. That was a secret to me before.
    Thats my point. It was a secret to you but im sure plenty of people may have picked up on that (im no Golf expert, so it is an assumption to be honest)
    Once again, whats a secret as opposed to something the practitioner doesn't know but plenty of people do?

    Boxing strategy has secrets. Floyds d for example nobody has figured it out so he must have secrets. At least from what I've seen people don't face him the first time and say I've seen all that before. Roger probably has training secrets he doesn't let out for Floyd. Even in an open environment like boxing
    I think theres subtle things he does, but the rest is all there to see. Id add his ungodly reflexes and freakish reach doesnt hurt either

    Anyway just kicking ideas around. This is a pretty good discussion.
    Very good discussion, best for ages

  11. #26
    I've always felt Wing Chun relation to geometry is were certain secrets are hidden. Certain curiosities in our punching method are quite unique.
    "Wing Chun is a bell that appears when rung.

  12. #27
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    There is only one secret in the MA:
    Hard work and all that comes with that:
    Blood, sweat, pain, bruises and broken bones.

    That said, it was very normal for old school teachers to hold things back from some and only tell the WHOLE story to a selected few ( sometimes one).
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    There is only one secret in the MA:
    Hard work and all that comes with that:
    Blood, sweat, pain, bruises and broken bones.

    That said, it was very normal for old school teachers to hold things back from some and only tell the WHOLE story to a selected few ( sometimes one).
    I 150% agree with this for the practical realities of combat and common fitness but... There is a reason why the old guard in TCM often had a more...esoteric relationship with martial science. Though they obviously fought often, deathly real and all the chips in. This part is the heart of Kung Fu. This, if can be believed is where all the secrets lie.
    "Wing Chun is a bell that appears when rung.

  14. #29
    Another way in which physical skills like wing chun might be counted as secret: they are meaningless unless you can actually embody them. Information can be freely available but is as good as code unless you spend the time and effort to make it work for you and to become a part of you. Wing chun is quite a difficult thing to make work and not many people that I have met can actually do it. In this way it is 'known' by only a small number of people.

    An interesting result related to that above is that different ways of making it work exist, based upon different understandings, making the results mutually exclusive and in a way unknowable to each other. Examples include WSL VT and Hawkins Cheung/Chu/Orr wing chun. Both of these appear to work in different ways, but the results of these interpretations are quite different and contradict each other.

    This fosters an idea of otherness, reinforces group identity, and encourages secrecy. Someone who has internalised one understanding and made it work will certainly be unwilling and may be unable to understand a mutually exclusive approach. In this way such approaches can be secret, not understandable or even non-sensical to the adherents of the other approach.
    Last edited by guy b.; 11-12-2015 at 01:53 PM.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    Another way in which physical skills like wing chun might be counted as secret: they are meaningless unless you can actually embody them. Information can be freely available but is as good as code unless you spend the time and effort to make it work for you and to become a part of you. Wing chun is quite a difficult thing to make work and not many people that I have met can actually do it. In this way it is 'known' by only a small number of people.

    An interesting result related to that above is that different ways of making it work exist, based upon different understandings, making the results mutually exclusive and in a way unknowable to each other. Examples include WSL VT and Hawkins Cheung/Chu/Orr wing chun. Both of these appear to work in different ways, but the results of these interpretations are quite different and contradict each other.

    This fosters an idea of otherness, reinforces group identity, and encourages secrecy. Someone who has internalised one understanding and made it work will certainly be unwilling and may be unable to understand a mutually exclusive approach. In this way such approaches can be secret, not understandable or even non-sensical to the adherents of the other approach.

    That information will allow a student to see and understand where he is going. He may not choose to. But he understands what else is there, now. If he does not know it exists, he may bail and go elsewhere. Again, eventually it may not be shared and essentially lost in that line.

    Some of the WC I see is completely foreign to me. Others I identify with very well. Alan Orr being one. Duncan Leung being another. James Sinclair as well. It may be because they explain application in ways I understand ? Of the 3, I felt the closest affinity to Leung's. But I have only seen limited material from any of the those.

    Group identity is great but eventually it more than likely leads to stagnation. If you are unwilling to leave the group to find other ways or ideas. Even if it is just from another line of WC. They may have a better way for doing certain things that you are unaware of. As John said, it is a secret if you do not know. If people shared openly, then we would know. If it is something you want to understand better, well now you know it exists.

    We no longer live in a time where these "secrets" are important to keep hidden. Most of us do not use martial arts often or ever. You will not be able to take more than a 10th of any system not created for ringcraft into an event. Death matches, LOL. I recommend not doing that if there is such a thing. You will eventually die. Always someone better. The last time I had trouble, was 15 or more years ago. I just said one day, I am done. A main issue causing all this stuff was ME ! I changed. No more problems.

    Great thread.
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 11-12-2015 at 06:13 PM.

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