Ground fighting and Kung fu (all styles known as of today

[sanjuro_ronin]

So true.

And on the other side, there are those who see specialized hand formations (like leopard fist or Phoenix eye fist, for example) and automatically dismiss them as useless because they don't realize the training and conditioning that makes them useful.

Indeed.
My HK and SPM teacher was always very clear that forging was 100% needed for the specialized fists and we did lots of conditioning.
I was never a fan of finger strikes so I didn't trained them but did train the PE fist and dragon fist and I can hit the HB with them full force just like a regular fist.
I have used them AND I have MISSED with them and NOT hurt myself.
I know only a handful of guys that can use finger strikes and claws well and they ALL have forged them also.
One guy can bend wrenches and roll-up frying pans with his finger strength ( he uses the tiger claw very well) and the other guys can hit the HB close to full force with his finger strikes.

The harsh reality is that these specialized formations do work BUT require serious forging to be effective in a real fight.
Some think they can just hit the "right places" and the soft areas and they don't need the conditioning.
They are incorrect IMO.

[boxerbilly]

So true.

And on the other side, there are those who see specialized hand formations (like leopard fist or Phoenix eye fist, for example) and automatically dismiss them as useless because they don't realize the training and conditioning that makes them useful.

I think it is more a response that , they are unwilling to train those. Most people will not which highly limits their usability to them. So they scrap it.

Those SCARS. Many moves use that middle knuckle., dragons head or whatever someone's system calls it. I call it a junk move because I have not and probably would not invest the time to make it work better. I also have swung over to larger impact surface are tends to work better for the things I did. No, I wince every time I see someone that looks to own a esoteric technique. I know what it would likely feel like. Not to pleasant. Possibly fighting ending. But those guys are few and far between. But for me, it is useless. Glad I know about it but I weigh benefits to time. Risk to benefits. Etc. Some guys, are willing to do what ever if they want it. I tend to substitute. Might not be as penetrating but my hand is likely to remain in take and I don't have to do a lot of extra for something I probably will not use often in my life. That sort of thing.

I think even MMA guys know, a finger in the eye sucks !

[MightyB]

I may read this video totally different than you guys - but to me, this is an example of how BJJ is overspecializing and focusing too much on how to fight other BJJers:

[boxerbilly]

I may read this video totally different than you guys - but to me, this is an example of how BJJ is overspecializing and focusing too much on how to fight other BJJers:

I think this phenomenon shows up in every method. How often does one go and train their stuff outside of their system? Go ask a guy from another art. "Dude, would it be cool if you showed me how to beat you ? " Almost never.

Plus their is the sport aspect and you focus solely against competing with others in the art to see who is better. So one guy or coach figures a way to counter this guys main move and then that guy goes back to figure out how to reverse your counter and things just keep adding. You end up with a thousand techniques in some systems. It becomes overwhelming for certain. It also begins to enter into the highly unlikely anywhere but inside this system while training. But, there will always be people that want more, more ,more from their system.

Old karate. Punch makiwara 500 time with reverse punch. Kick makiwara 500 times with front kick. In 1 years you will be ready to learn a block. Until you have a strong attack. No need for block.

edit. I watch in amazement ww2 combatives guys. Okay one could say there were methodologies built around wrestling that became fairly in depth. But took to long to turn out guys. So, Fairbairn and his crew striped their old Shanghai Cop curriculum down to bare bones. Maybe a dozen techniques and really 3-4 core ones. He warned this stuff is not going to work against pro fighters. But if you do face one, do this not that. He warned this is last ditch and if you fall on empty hands you are likely dead. Your enemy will be armed-game over.

But, these guys across the world just keep adding and adding and adding curriculum. It was supposed to be simple and to the point decisive. It has become anything but that now. Sure, some of the newer ideas are good maybe better. But they fail to adhere to keep it simple stupid. We don't have time. Not to train , not to use. Some of these guys have hundreds of ways now. From a core 3-4. It has gone from sucker punch assaulting to counter this that and everything else. Well add rules and make it a sport then !

[mickey]

Greetings

Please feel free to post a video of yourself in a challenge match so we can see how it should be done

I knew I would get a response like yours, Frost.

Thank you for using the words "challenge match". A challenge match is not a fight. It is simply a challenge match. In a real fight you would not see the guys simply walk away from each other. And in being a challenge match, whatever was resolved is between them. It has nothing to do with anyone else. It is not reflective of the strengths and weaknesses of TCMA. And I find the dialogue highly incongruous to what happens after the guys separated: them simply walking away from each other. If that was what was in that guy's heart, he should have renewed his attack with a passion. The guy blowing cigarette smoke in the other persons face was a little strange; instead of turning away from it, the guy just stood there as if he did not want to upset the camera angle.

A CHALLENGE MATCH IS NOT A FIGHT!!

mickey

[mickey]

To add:

The UFC, K-1 are not fights. They are combative competitions. Can those techniques be used on the streets? Yes. Still, those events are simply competitions. It is not all out. Athletes who have thought otherwise have been getting killed because of it. I especially enjoyed the scene in "Rising Sun" where Wesley Snipes threw a hard side kick at one of the gangsters. It didn't bother the guy and the gangsters all started laughing at him.

mickey

[boxerbilly]

Greetings



. And I find the dialogue highly incongruous to what happens after the guys separated: them simply walking away from each other. If that was what was in that guy's heart, he should have renewed his attack with a passion.

A CHALLENGE MATCH IS NOT A FIGHT!!

mickey

Mickey,

That was done because he believed there was no clear winner. He was goading but even more importantly he was barking loud so hopefully the other guy backs down. If he does, in his mind, He won !

Regardless, it took a lot of courage and even more stupidity for both sides to show up and eventually go for it. I still don't understand why they just did not fight on some nice soft mats with clear rules. They both clearly clung to acceptable moves. Im glad no one was pounded out and they guy keeps pounding him. That's deadly. That's why there are refs. Stop it when one is done. That's what this is but they ref'd themselves. Thankfully they mainly remained cool headed. Do it in a gym !

[David Jamieson]

I think it's ok for an art form to focus on itself and get into that.
I do not think it's ok for an artist to stagnate in singular form.
To progress, you must adapt whatever it is you are learning with full knowledge that it is you who will address the attack upon you.
Not the art.

IE: a pile of building materials is not a house.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think it is more a response that , they are unwilling to train those. Most people will not which highly limits their usability to them. So they scrap it.

Those SCARS. Many moves use that middle knuckle., dragons head or whatever someone's system calls it. I call it a junk move because I have not and probably would not invest the time to make it work better. I also have swung over to larger impact surface are tends to work better for the things I did. No, I wince every time I see someone that looks to own a esoteric technique. I know what it would likely feel like. Not to pleasant. Possibly fighting ending. But those guys are few and far between. But for me, it is useless. Glad I know about it but I weigh benefits to time. Risk to benefits. Etc. Some guys, are willing to do what ever if they want it. I tend to substitute. Might not be as penetrating but my hand is likely to remain in take and I don't have to do a lot of extra for something I probably will not use often in my life. That sort of thing.

I think even MMA guys know, a finger in the eye sucks !

It is important for all fighters to gauge their own " law of diminishing returns".
For me, specialty fists and iron hand training is as part of my MA is strength training and bag work.
They take longer to develop BUT in MY experience are worth it.
I recall taking out one guy's arm with a PE fist to the bicep that made his arm useless and that end the fight before it even began.

I don't think specialized training is for everyone and that is why it ISN'T passed on to everyone.

[boxerbilly]

Real nice participation in this thread. Thanks everyone.

For those interested in deeper understanding. I suggest anything Col. David Grossman produces.

[RisingCrane]

In Southern style the move is called:
'Cat Washes its Face'
No combat sport guys would say that the move is ineffective.

The reason many kung fu people can't use it, is that instead of watching
the video of the actual fights, students are looking at the
still picture and trying to copy the form.

The combat sports guy is not thinking
'That move looks ineffective' rather he is thinking-
'That PERSON looks ineffective'.

Instead of 'would this move work in a real fight?'
Ask- 'How can I train to use this effectively in a fight?'
Different question leads to different outcome.

[Frost]

Greetings



I knew I would get a response like yours, Frost.

Thank you for using the words "challenge match". A challenge match is not a fight. It is simply a challenge match. In a real fight you would not see the guys simply walk away from each other. And in being a challenge match, whatever was resolved is between them. It has nothing to do with anyone else. It is not reflective of the strengths and weaknesses of TCMA. And I find the dialogue highly incongruous to what happens after the guys separated: them simply walking away from each other. If that was what was in that guy's heart, he should have renewed his attack with a passion. The guy blowing cigarette smoke in the other persons face was a little strange; instead of turning away from it, the guy just stood there as if he did not want to upset the camera angle.

A CHALLENGE MATCH IS NOT A FIGHT!!

mickey

It's a fight, and that's a no to posting the clip then?

[mickey]

Greetings,

No, Frost, I will not be doing that. Posting stuff like that for commentary and fame is not why I got into the arts. I feel sad for those who do that or feel they have to do that.

For me, it is just a match. We can agree to disagree.

mickey

[mig]

I may read this video totally different than you guys - but to me, this is an example of how BJJ is overspecializing and focusing too much on how to fight other BJJers:

My first posting was not about BJJ and that's why I mentioned ground fighting. I've been watching big cats documentaries and noticed there is always both standing fighting and ground fighting. I am not sure we are different than them when we fight to each toher and I've always noticed that real fights ground fighting is inevitable.
That's why I find odd not to find ground fighting in TCMA as in wrestling or jj or maybe I haven't seen yet.

[boxerbilly]

My first posting was not about BJJ and that's why I mentioned ground fighting. I've been watching big cats documentaries and noticed there is always both standing fighting and ground fighting. I am not sure we are different than them when we fight to each toher and I've always noticed that real fights ground fighting is inevitable.
That's why I find odd not to find ground fighting in TCMA as in wrestling or jj or maybe I haven't seen yet.

Hi Mig,

I think that is because , in my opinion and others may disagree, much can be traced back to battlefield. Don't want to be off your feet when there are a lot of guys running around with weapons.