Ground fighting and Kung fu (all styles known as of today

[mickey]

Greetings,

You guys call that a fight?

It is more of a contest than anything else. If not, it is a complete work, complete with self aggrandizing dialogue. If your technique is not doing what it is supposed to do, you convert to something else. That video is almost as bad s that guy at the dojo claiming that he was taught by Jesus Christ. This is not even worthy of discussion. Leave it for the guys at bullshido.

Pregnant flies are starting to converge upon this thread. The temperature is about right.

mickey

[Jimbo]

Greetings,

You guys call that a fight?

It is more of a contest than anything else. If not, it is a complete work, complete with self aggrandizing dialogue. If your technique is not doing what it is supposed to do, you convert to something else.

I'll have to disagree. It was clearly an actual fight, but NOT a combat (life or death) situation. It was a fight along the lines of a schoolyard tussle. A pi$$ing contest in which the bully was jockeying for dominance and ended up getting embarrassed. It certainly wasn't a 'work'. If it were, surely they would have planned it out better. Lots of real fights are boring to watch, but are real enough to the participants.

It's also clear that bully-boy wasn't able to convert his technique when it didn't work.

[Frost]

Greetings,

You guys call that a fight?

It is more of a contest than anything else. If not, it is a complete work, complete with self aggrandizing dialogue. If your technique is not doing what it is supposed to do, you convert to something else. That video is almost as bad s that guy at the dojo claiming that he was taught by Jesus Christ. This is not even worthy of discussion. Leave it for the guys at bullshido.

Pregnant flies are starting to converge upon this thread. The temperature is about right.

mickey

Please feel free to post a video of yourself in a challenge match so we can see how it should be done

[boxerbilly]

IMO, Judo is an ideal art for a child to begin MA training. BJJ is a good choice, too, but Judo has a special place in my heart. They can tussle harder with more safety than a striking art. Plus, it teaches breakfalls which, in addition to the throwing/grappling, toughens and strengthens the body in ways that striking-only arts do not. I think it builds a good foundation for any future MA training, whatever art or arts it may end up being.

The idea I like best about BJJ is the option to potentially control the fight without causing lasting harm to another. Beats kids knocking each others teeth out over who is first in line. I wish we had it when I was a teen.

[MightyB]

I wanted to put this clip on here to show what happens when a person is in no mood to pi$$ around and is willing to use one of those "too deadly" TCMA techniques which most of you consider rubbish.

[boxerbilly]

I wanted to put this clip on here to show what happens when a person is in no mood to pi$$ around and is willing to use one of those "too deadly" TCMA techniques which most of you consider rubbish.

Hi Mighty. Wrong choice of words or context I guess. I do not consider this rubbish. I don't consider a lot of high potential for lasting injury moves garbage. When I say they are a joke it is because most people will never resort to them. This guy is Special Forces. They think different. Their belief system is different than most of us. They are 10-1 percenters.

They don't think about hurting and killing people the same way the rest of us hopefully do. Some SF guys are potentially sociopathic. Most are not. They know right from wrong but they have different wiring and more abundant chemicals that allow them to react extremely calm in the face of any danger. This can not be trained. You either have that peptide or you do not. It does not make them say a better boxer or GJJ guy or whatever. It is just, they don't feel fear.

It has become so scientific now that if you lack that peptide, you are basically not even consider for SF anymore. Again, they also tend to think very differently about doing damage/death. Really king of the mountain type guys when it comes to anything combative and often outside the realms of combat. They tend to be extremely smart and clever. Ad training and education and you got the best of the best , regardless the group or country they come from.

[MightyB]

I do not consider this rubbish.

I wasn't targeting anybody specifically - just a general attitude that started in the MMA/BJJ crowd in the 90's. These types of moves were barred in the early UFC and it became a running joke to make fun of anybody who said that there were moves that were useful that were actually too deadly to use. This video shows that there are effective moves that are too deadly to use. This video is kind of an answer to the original post in this thread.

[boxerbilly]

I wasn't targeting anybody specifically - just a general attitude that started in the MMA/BJJ crowd in the 90's. These types of moves were barred in the early UFC and it became a running joke to make fun of anybody who said that there were moves that were useful that were actually too deadly to use. This video shows that there are effective moves that are too deadly to use. This video is kind of an answer to the original post in this thread.

Thanks. I did not believe you were singling me out but I did make those comments as well.

People can be trained and develop confidence and reactions rather well. If all you do is train that stuff it will become a reflex state. And it is likely you will respond as trained. This can be done but not the way it is done on the average schools. The problem is, normal people will then have psychological problems after hurting or killing another human and from that point on they are effectively done. Gun shy. Some kill themselves. This is serious truth that is almost never given consideration. It ruins the users life essentially.

Also, if the training has to far apart gaps, the reflexes disappear. Average guy needs to keep up training for that stuff. Some stuff innate to you will always remain. It is part of your first brain wiring. If something you trained is close enough the new possible better movement will remain but most is lost.

Anyway, I spent years doing just that stuff. Never used it. Always there was consequence in the back of my mind. So I resorted to one may say, sport methods.
My brother. A retired Marine Officer. . Has broke a mans leg with a side kick. One move and it was over. I have not and I may not be able to. Like most people, I think and worry. He was/is decisive always.

[Jimbo]

I wasn't targeting anybody specifically - just a general attitude that started in the MMA/BJJ crowd in the 90's. These types of moves were barred in the early UFC and it became a running joke to make fun of anybody who said that there were moves that were useful that were actually too deadly to use. This video shows that there are effective moves that are too deadly to use. This video is kind of an answer to the original post in this thread.

Yeah, anybody who laughs at the idea of eye pokes has never been eye poked. I once got thumbed in the eye during a sparring match. We were wearing gloves where the fingertips stick out of the gloves. His thumb hadn't been closed. Maybe the worst pain I ever felt in my life, even worse than a ball shot. When I touched my closed eyelid right after, I couldn't feel the eyeball; I assume it had temporarily been flattened or pushed back?). Gradually, I touched it again and felt it. It was a miracle I didn't suffer a detached retina or worse. I was done for the day.

[MightyB]

that sounds horrible Jimbo!

BoxerB - You're right, you have to be committed to winning at all costs and train accordingly and that's not in a normal person's nature. I think people generally are good and tend to be kind and won't do extreme measures, especially in butthurt ego fights.

Something I noticed in the early Gracie Challenge fights on youtube is that they were fighting for their family's name/honor and I believe they were willing to do whatever was necessary to win (possibly up to maiming and killing the opponent) and that's a huge factor in why they always won because the opponents approached it like a contest. It wasn't a life or death situation to the opponent but it was to the Gracies.

TCMA didn't start as a gentle activity to pass away one's leisure time. It was a family thing for professional fighters and soldiers. Those moves are still in the systems, but we as normal people, either don't recognize the moves, or would never use them. But, if you were trained, willing, and your livelihood and possibly life were on the line and you were engaged in a fight, does BJJ groundwork come into play? IDK. It didn't seem to be a factor based on what we see in TCMA. But we really don't know. Still - look at the early Gracie stuff and it's more like Judo self defense. The modern stuff is different.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I wasn't targeting anybody specifically - just a general attitude that started in the MMA/BJJ crowd in the 90's. These types of moves were barred in the early UFC and it became a running joke to make fun of anybody who said that there were moves that were useful that were actually too deadly to use. This video shows that there are effective moves that are too deadly to use. This video is kind of an answer to the original post in this thread.

Of course there are moves that are "too deadly" to use outside of real combat, everyone that has actually fought know this.
The issue is that they are low percentage moves ( law of diminishing returns).
Now, I can show half a dozen moves that are very practical, very deadly and that almost anyone can use BUT why?
Sure I like to keep them in the back pocket "just in case" but the reality is that every MA has those, including BJJ of course.

The only people that believed that there were no "too deadly" are those of the same intellectual ability as those that believed that the "too deadly" would just magically work all the time without actually training them.

[MightyB]

The only people that believed that there were no "too deadly" are those of the same intellectual ability as those that believed that the "too deadly" would just magically work all the time without actually training them.

This reminds me of playing basketball as a kid where somebody throws a hard pass and you jam your fingers a bit when you catch it. It hurts.

See there's a move in mantis (and a lot of other martial arts styles) that involves poking your opponent's eyes with the index and middle fingers. I always thought it was irresponsible to teach that move for self defense without first teaching how to develop the fingers. What happens to you if you miss the eyes and bounce your fingers off of your opponents skull? You'd jam your fingers and potentially make your hand useless for the rest of the fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This reminds me of playing basketball as a kid where somebody throws a hard pass and you jam your fingers a bit when you catch it. It hurts.

See there's a move in mantis (and a lot of other martial arts styles) that involves poking your opponent's eyes with the index and middle fingers. I always thought it was irresponsible to teach that move for self defense without first teaching how to develop the fingers. What happens to you if you miss the eyes and bounce your fingers off of your opponents skull? You'd jam your fingers and potentially make your hand useless for the rest of the fight.

Correct BUT the thing is that in systems that do teach specialised fist/hand forms, conditioning was always part of the process.
What happened?
Well, forging your tools hurts, so does training to sue them and what you end up with is "flower fighters" that THINK they can fight with these great "equalizers" but since they have NOT done the work to make them effective, they fail.

[bawang]

I wanted to put this clip on here to show what happens when a person is in no mood to pi$$ around and is willing to use one of those "too deadly" TCMA techniques which most of you consider rubbish.

the jab, most deadly secret technique of kung fu

[Jimbo]

Correct BUT the thing is that in systems that do teach specialised fist/hand forms, conditioning was always part of the process.
What happened?
Well, forging your tools hurts, so does training to sue them and what you end up with is "flower fighters" that THINK they can fight with these great "equalizers" but since they have NOT done the work to make them effective, they fail.

So true.

And on the other side, there are those who see specialized hand formations (like leopard fist or Phoenix eye fist, for example) and automatically dismiss them as useless because they don't realize the training and conditioning that makes them useful.