Ground fighting and Kung fu (all styles known as of today

[MightyB]

People (non-Chinese) need to stop trying to frame every question about kung fu in terms of making assumptions about practicality and do more work into trying to understand kung fu anthropologically.

People need to stop worrying about what's not in tcma and start focusing on what's in tcma.

[-N-]

traditional folk wrestling usually emphasize holding an enemy on the ground where your team mates can finish him off.

From Art of War to modern military boot camp, it's about teamwork.

"It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten to the enemy's one, to surround him; if five to
one, to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army into two."

[mig]

People need to stop worrying about what's not in tcma and start focusing on what's in tcma.

Who's worrying. Let us not make it complicated. In general, if there is a fight, chances is that ground fighting is inevitable, so what do you when someone is versed in ground fighting, come on let's be realistic. I am not here to debate all styles against jj or bjj but to understand what happened in China. Someone made the remark about weapons without the need to know how to fight with fist, kicks or else and bawang accurately mentioned about ground fighting in ancient times.

My curiosity is to see the lack of ground fighting in TCMA and just trying to find an explanation both historically and the new evolution with cross training with all other arts that has a component of ground fighting.

[bawang]

My curiosity is to see the lack of ground fighting in TCMA and just trying to find an explanation both historically and the new evolution with cross training with all other arts that has a component of ground fighting.

ground fighting is difficult to learn and that is the only reason it was not common. ju jitsu was already a small elite art and ne waza was even more uncommon and obscure.

in chinese qin na most of the legitimate techniques you just tense all your muscles and hold the opponent with all your strength to buy time and it generally worked fine in ancient battles. in civilian world ground fighting isnt fun to watch so it never developed.

[MightyB]

In general, if there is a fight, chances is that ground fighting is inevitable

Bullsh*t. Just throw this idea in the trash. It was a great marketing tactic by a famous family, but it's simply not true.

so what do you when someone is versed in ground fighting, come on let's be realistic.

First of all, don't engage them in a groundfight. It's that simple. Think Rousey vs Holm. I've talked about this topic before and included video clips, so do a forum search if you want examples, but here's the jist - BJJ isn't that good at takedowns. Most clubs start randori on their knees.

Listen, there are two situations that people are really talking about when they talk about fighting on da' streetz. You have the classic Ego Butthurt, and it's variant, the drunken Ego Butthurt. Both situations are simple to avoid, but, if you happen to find yourself in one and you want to engage, then here's a training tip.

I expect $50 for this online lesson.

You can win most, if not all, ego and drunken ego fights by training this (classical Karate guys knew this secret):
Sink a 4 * 4 post or a fence post in your yard. Attach a phone book to the post about head high. Strike the phone book with straight punches daily. Increase your intensity over time until you get to the point where you can strike it with full force. You are now equipped with the tool that will allow you to win most, if not all, butthurt fight situations.

I am not here to debate all styles against jj or bjj but to understand what happened in China. Someone made the remark about weapons without the need to know how to fight with fist, kicks or else and bawang accurately mentioned about ground fighting in ancient times.

Asked and you received. Weapons and group tactics were the bulk of traditional martial arts training when martial arts were about war. When they became about dueling, then they adapted their own rule sets.

My curiosity is to see the lack of ground fighting in TCMA and just trying to find an explanation both historically and the new evolution with cross training with all other arts that has a component of ground fighting.

huh? no you were trolling with the old bullsh*t BJJ / MMA is the best. You changed it up a bit, but it is what it is...

Anyway - your questions were answered.

Now here's something that people don't think about - but TCMA is adapting. CMA is adapting. Years ago when no one knew about BJJ, it had a HUUUUUGGGE advantage. But people learned and adapted including TCMA. But let's not forget about CMA. Specifically San Shou / San Da. Excellent striking, great takedown defense. Pretty much sums it up. You train like that and you win most if not all fights without groundfighting.

....

Personally I think BJJ is a lot of fun. It really is an enjoyable form of training. But it is what it is. After blue belt, it's about BJJ vs BJJ and IMPO, there has to be some rule adjustments in the tournament scene because it's getting over-specialized to the point of being silly. worm guard, donkey guard, butt scooting - c'mon seriously.

[-N-]

Weapons and group tactics were the bulk of traditional martial arts training when martial arts were about war. When they became about dueling, then they adapted their own rule sets.

[...]

Now here's something that people don't think about - but TCMA is adapting. CMA is adapting. Years ago when no one knew about BJJ, it had a HUUUUUGGGE advantage. But people learned and adapted including TCMA.

Adapting to the martial sport context where going to the ground doesn't get you killed, and you can develop a complete science of an extended ground game.

[MightyB]

Adapting to the martial sport context where going to the ground doesn't get you killed, and you can develop a complete science of an extended ground game.

This is so true N - it really sums up this thread.

---

Threads like this frustrate me because TCMA is so developed and people are missing out on something wonderful because of marketing hype.

Keenan does a seminar with basic chin na and people look at him like he's a wizard.
MMA clubs are pushing natural movement seminars which are thinly veiled replicas of forms training.
Gracies are pushing "mindfulness and meditation" which is an attempt to incorporate Zen.
Yoga introduced as a substitute for Qi Gung.

Just do TCMA with a good Sifu and you get all of that!

It'd be so much easier for a person to do TCMA and add the Gracie online Blue Belt than trying to rediscover the secrets of TCMA on their own!

[David Jamieson]

Greco Roman Wrestling, Sumo, Judo, Scottish Back-hold wrestling, Mongolian Wrestling, Shuai Jiao, Ju-Jitsu, and many other forms of traditional grappling share a common trait - they do very little and sometimes no groundfighting.

Groundfighting as we know it is an ultra modern construct. Sure it's fun and effective nowadays, but it had little value when pointy things were involved.

We're talking about training, which technically is only that.
So, yes, I agree, with a weapon, I doubt I'd even do much boxing and just get to stabbing if threatened.
But not all threats call for the extreme defense of eradication through superior means. And Kung Fu demands measured steps of it practicioners. Otherwise, savagery would do just fine and systems can just head on out the window.
Also, "Do very little"? Explain yourself!

[SoCo KungFu]

People need to stop worrying about what's not in tcma and start focusing on what's in tcma.

Two sides of the same question. What are the gaps in your system/training?

[SoCo KungFu]

Bullsh*t. Just throw this idea in the trash. It was a great marketing tactic by a famous family, but it's simply not true.

While not all, or even most, a 0.30 to 0.45 probability is still highly significant. Do you train all your specialized techs that you will have less than 5% chance of use while excluding a skill set that would be useful in roughly 1 in 3 altercations, if not more? That would seem pretty stupid.

BJJ isn't that good at takedowns. Most clubs start randori on their knees.

Is BJJ the only form of groundfighting? Funny, growing up in the south where every 3rd boy either wrestled or played football, I must have been imagining all those times someone got speared in a crowded room...

Listen, there are two situations that people are really talking about when they talk about fighting on da' streetz. You have the classic Ego Butthurt, and it's variant, the drunken Ego Butthurt. Both situations are simple to avoid, but, if you happen to find yourself in one and you want to engage, then here's a training tip.

While I agree, we could take this logic further. 98% of any altercation occurs before any punch is thrown. So if we're talking about "da' streetz", all martial arts are rather useless compared to situational awareness and not being a douche.

Asked and you received. Weapons and group tactics were the bulk of traditional martial arts training when martial arts were about war. When they became about dueling, then they adapted their own rule sets.

And the bulk of what anyone has trained in TCMA is designed around that latter use. Practically all of the empty hand. And really, the majority of the weapon work considering how *******ized its become over the generations. Its always funny to me when civilians try to make assumptions based on military necessities...

You train like that and you win most if not all fights without groundfighting.

The most important thing in winning a street fight has nothing to do with style or range. It has to do with initiating aggression and not letting up until the threat is eliminated or an escape route is open. People die by hesitating. The rest is just a means to an end. Being first is a big advantage, sharp pointy things or otherwise.

Personally I think BJJ is a lot of fun. It really is an enjoyable form of training. But it is what it is. After blue belt, it's about BJJ vs BJJ and IMPO, there has to be some rule adjustments in the tournament scene because it's getting over-specialized to the point of being silly. worm guard, donkey guard, butt scooting - c'mon seriously.

I think you focus too much on BJJ. It wasn't that long ago you were trying to convince everyone that Judo was going to replace BJJ on the ground in MMA. And while BJJ does get specialized at the higher levels (really, you only need about 2 high % and a couple sweeps once strikes are in the mix), the same criticism is applicable to TMA's. The bulk of what is trained in kung fu is far too narrow to be of any real use, especially in soon to be 2016 North America.

[MightyB]

Did I sh*t in your wheaties or am I reading this wrong?

anyway...

While not all, or even most, a 0.30 to 0.45 probability is still highly significant. Do you train all your specialized techs that you will have less than 5% chance of use while excluding a skill set that would be useful in roughly 1 in 3 altercations, if not more? That would seem pretty stupid.

Learn to get up if you fail to defend the shoot - doesn't take much.

Is BJJ the only form of groundfighting? Funny, growing up in the south where every 3rd boy either wrestled or played football, I must have been imagining all those times someone got speared in a crowded room...

No - but it is what we're talking about here - (I thought about bringing up wrestling - but the majority of us are out of high school - and you probably shouldn't be fighting high schoolers. The skill does fade without practice and I don't know about you, but I'm not too worried about people my age who may have wrastled in junior high).

While I agree, we could take this logic further. 98% of any altercation occurs before any punch is thrown. So if we're talking about "da' streetz", all martial arts are rather useless compared to situational awareness and not being a douche.

I very much agree on this - that's pretty much why I said there's really only two types of altercations a person has to worry about and both are very preventable. The other isn't and training really doesn't help. I'm a big fan of Sanford Strong and the data says MA isn't much of a factor in real self defense.

And the bulk of what anyone has trained in TCMA is designed around that latter use. Practically all of the empty hand. And really, the majority of the weapon work considering how *******ized its become over the generations. Its always funny to me when civilians try to make assumptions based on military necessities...

We're talking about historical TCMA. And the research says that historically formations and weapons work were the bulk of TCMA.

The most important thing in winning a street fight has nothing to do with style or range. It has to do with initiating aggression and not letting up until the threat is eliminated or an escape route is open. People die by hesitating. The rest is just a means to an end. Being first is a big advantage, sharp pointy things or otherwise.

Again I agree 100%. You should read Sanford Strong's material.

I think you focus too much on BJJ.

Because it is the methodology people think about when discussing ground work. I doubt people think first about Judo Newaza, or Russian Sa*mbo, or freestyle Wrestling when they think about ground work.

It wasn't that long ago you were trying to convince everyone that Judo was going to replace BJJ on the ground in MMA.

History will vindicate me! Besides - what I said is becoming more and more true everyday. Crowds, i.e. money, like the big throws and BJJ is getting too specialized.

And while BJJ does get specialized at the higher levels (really, you only need about 2 high % and a couple sweeps once strikes are in the mix), the same criticism is applicable to TMA's. The bulk of what is trained in kung fu is far too narrow to be of any real use, especially in soon to be 2016 North America.

Very true and pretty much my whole argument in this thread if you read what I wrote. TCMA has a lot to offer and by focusing on a very marginal segment that it doesn't historically cover really does the art a disservice. That's my whole point. It doesn't take long to learn what you need for ground fighting in "self defense"... especially if you train striking really well.

Now what I think we as a community should wrastle with (see the pun) is expressing that very statement, but instead of saying "too narrow to be of any real use" - explain how that seemingly useless stuff is of use especially in 2016 and beyond.

Things like qi gung, flexibility, endurance, balance, expressive movement... just being fit and able to move better, etc. all of that stuff that leads to a balanced holistic lifestyle which is of far more use than any paranoid attempt at being the perfect killing machine.

[bawang]

this topic is moot, if you like fighting why argue whether they need to train bjj or not. this is rediculous. just pay for two or three month lessons. then if you feel you dont need it stop training. what is the problem?


all these changes in the martial art world seems like a hurricane but is just a mosquito farrting in the real world.

[bawang]

TCMA has a lot to offer
.

so does fingerpainting or cooking

Things like qi gung, flexibility, endurance, balance, expressive movement... just being fit and able to move better, etc. all of that stuff that leads to a balanced holistic lifestyle which is of far more use than any paranoid attempt at being the perfect killing machine.

kung fu basic activities are marching running with weight vest, lifting weights, punching bags and hitting yourself with a stick. i never heard of "holistic lifestyle"

this is why bbj and mma are great. they are true and authentic with no smokes and mirrors.

[RenDaHai]

kung fu basic activities are marching running with weight vest, lifting weights, punching bags and hitting yourself with a stick. i never heard of "holistic lifestyle"

this is why bbj and mma are great. they are true and authentic with no smokes and mirrors.

I don't see the advantage to reducing the martial arts to a thing in itself.

It was said above 98% of confrontation can be avoided by awareness. This is not true. Its true for confrontations against only yourself. But many fights happen when you intervene in other peoples fights. A situation in which you have no control, you have no aggressive momentum, no initiative and don't even know who is right and wrong yet conscience compels you to step in. You must know the local unwritten rules of social interaction, but sometimes even when it is clearly dangerous and unpredictable to do so you must interject because righteousness is heavier than your life. It is your duty. Without moral and social cultivation how can you be training kung fu?

It was said that aggression and initiative leads to victory. While undoubtedly true, this information is not so useful. You cannot simply tell yourself to be aggressive. Sometimes you have no aggressive momentum, it simply happens that way, you cannot change this any more than you can change the weather because it is only in part due to you. In such a situation you must fight without it and that requires a whole different strategy. It is called the 'retreating tactic' in Kung fu and dominates longfist, it is useless in sparring however and so no one seems to bother with it. It requires self knowledge and reflection, the ability to read yourself, realise your emotion and respond to your intuition without friction. Without cultivating self knowledge how are you training kung fu?

You cannot remove 'the way' from kung fu, you would be left with some kind of weird dance calisthenics.

If you are capable of being inhumane then you have no need for Kung Fu or for any Martial arts. If you are willing to do anything it is a simple matter to destroy someone, why bother with an art? So if you reduce martial arts out of the context of culture and society, what you get is impractical in any real world way and if you did employ it would lead to all kinds of unexpected consequences. The philosophy surrounding Kung Fu is to put it into its useful context.

I realise the contempt held by many for esoteric philosophy in Kung Fu and I fully sympathize with it. This is because people who attempt to teach it tend to focus on the most abstruse Taoist and Zen mysticism. But these are insignificant. People don't realise that all aspects of Chinese culture are built carefully about a hub of quite rational and conservative CONFUCIANISM. When you remove this hub the rest loses its context.

Just as Ren (Benevolence) and Yi (Righteousness) are the Yin and Yang of man, Wen (Culture) and Wu (Martiality) are the yin and yang of civilisation. You could study one without the other... but why would you want to?

[bawang]

kung fu culture and morality is about combining actual fighting ability with virtue. claiming to be a righteous or enlightened person is the easier part. porn star lexington steel clams to be a devout christian.

in shaolin chan wu you reach religious trance by lifting weights and hitting bags while chanting sutras and mantras. PERIOD. this is non-negotiable. you cannot redefine shaolin.




speaking of esoteric, before i run with 40 pound weight vest i do light body qigong and imagine turning light as a feather, then pray to rabbit god for speed. i chant protection spell before i deadlift. i do this with a straight face. if you find this comical then you need to reevaluate your "pure esoteric holistic lifestyle" because what you truly want is to prance around doing a form and bask in the afterglow of release of a little bit of endorphines after a mild cardio session, thinking you have become a living god. or some other gay sh1t white hippies visualize about. this is just another form of western hedonism. you are still trapped by your senses and emotions.

basically, yes, those bjj schools teaching a bit of zen workship is more authentic than chinatown hobby lobby kung fu. because they have combined real authentic alive combat training with real authentic religious ritual.

where the hell did u guys learn that doing weird stuff means you dont have to train realisticly anymore. how does that even work.