Ground fighting and Kung fu (all styles known as of today

[boxerbilly]

He could not wrap his legs because he wasn't in guard he was mounted, hence everything else is redundant because you can't choke anyone when you are mounted

Im sorry, he could not wrap his legs and get the same leverage ? Grapevine him back down and use that for leverage to complete the choke ? Point is he screw up by not taking the wrap around with atleast one leg or as soon as he bottomed out. Probably because he was not used to impacting asphalt.

For the other reply, legs were locked behind me. But you are right, I could not get out of it then and probably not now. If they were in front Id twist his toes to the outside but he would probably have me in a choke too and arching already so Id be done all the same.

Edit- It looks to me Mr. Springers leg was on the outside when they went down.

[Frost]

Im sorry, he could not wrap his legs and get the same leverage ? Grapevine him back down and use that for leverage to complete the choke ? Point is he screw up by not taking the wrap around with atleast one leg or as soon as he bottomed out. Probably because he was not used to impacting asphalt.

For the other reply, legs were locked behind me. But you are right, I could not get out of it then and probably not now. If they were in front Id twist his toes to the outside but he would probably have me in a choke too and arching already so Id be done all the same.

You can't wrap your legs or grapevine when your opponent is sitting on your stomach its a physical impossibility HE can grapevine you but you can't him

Legs were locked behind you, so you were basically in his guard, no office but if he tapped you in that position you seriously need some basic grappling work

[boxerbilly]

You can't wrap your legs or grapevine when your opponent is sitting on your stomach its a physical impossibility HE can grapevine you but you can't him

Legs were locked behind you, so you were basically in his guard, no office but if he tapped you in that position you seriously need some basic grappling work

Yep, I see what you are saying. Point is though he had the **** choke and he screwed it up. LOL, Yeah I did say that I did not learn BJJ. My point was it can be done on the way down. He had everything there. He screw up. The way Springer had him. Could he not have just stepped over Springer to the outside and released the hold and knee drop his head? Especially once it was clear one arm doing the hold.

Lets be clear. It has been 20 years since I wrestled anyone. And ZERO real fights went to the ground. Unless I or the other guy was knocked out or knocked down. Times change. Im the first to admit things are way better now.

[Frost]

Yep, I see what you are saying. Point is though he had the **** choke and he screwed it up. LOL, Yeah I did say that I did not learn BJJ. My point was it can be done on the way down. He had everything there. He screw up. The way Springer had him. Could he not have just stepped over Springer to the outside and released the hold and knee drop his head? Especially once it was clear one arm doing the hold.

No point is he didn't have a choke, he did what everyone who cant grapple does, he grabbed the head and held on for dear life, he should have taken care of his balance first defended the takedown then choked him,
He could have done a lot of things easiest would have been to frame off his head to break the grip then feed him his teeth and when springer reached for him to stop the punching him broke his arm. The fact he did neither of these shows he was a newbie at grappling back then, and yet he still dominated the kung fu master

[boxerbilly]

No point is he didn't have a choke, he did what everyone who cant grapple does, he grabbed the head andnheldbon for dear life, he should have taken care of his balance first defended the takedown then choked him,
He could have done a lot of things easiest would have been to frame off his head to break the grip then feed him his teeth and when springer reached for him to stop the punching him broke his arm. The fact he did neither of these shows he was a newbie at grappling back then, and yet he still dominated the kung fu master

Anyway, I knew it can work because I have done it. We did know some chokes way back in the olden times. He had everything there. He screwed up or as you suggest did not know better. Yep, reaching is bad pull him in. But he did not break the arm. He did not force the arm over his face. He could have slipped his hand under the neck to control the arm . No one was that serious. This was chest puffing on both sides.

So again, if one method was attempting to prove which was better they both failed to do it for me. Okay, Mr. Springer has 30+ years of whatever and the other 6 months. So, I agree the 6 monther is way more impressive. Id have put money on the youngster anyway. Some training and WAY BETTER SHAPE !Got my bucks.

Edit, we used to have hair back then too. Mine was normally shoulder length. That stuff came into to play to when guys wrestled around of the mats. Call it crap but it worked then.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A few things:
No, John didn't have ANY choke at all, what he had ( at best) was head lock of sorts.
There is, like Frost said, no way to choke someone when they have you mounted that way.
Yes, there are some chokes that can work from being mounted that require a collar of sorts BUT even those are easily countered by the guy on top IF he has any grappling experience at all.
They are low percentage chokes at best.

The whole drama was a black eye on Bullshido and on John.

It did expose that he had very little "anti-grappling" experience.

Don't know where he is now or what he is up to since he kind of turned on everyone that thought that his behaviour in this was unbecoming ( including myself).

[Jimbo]

Springer posted here for years and was essentially the same personality here as there

Thanks for clarifying. He must've been one of those guys whose posts I never read. Lucky me, I guess.

[boxerbilly]

A few things:
No, John didn't have ANY choke at all, what he had ( at best) was head lock of sorts.
There is, like Frost said, no way to choke someone when they have you mounted that way.
Yes, there are some chokes that can work from being mounted that require a collar of sorts BUT even those are easily countered by the guy on top IF he has any grappling experience at all.
They are low percentage chokes at best.

The whole drama was a black eye on Bullshido and on John.

It did expose that he had very little "anti-grappling" experience.

Don't know where he is now or what he is up to since he kind of turned on everyone that thought that his behaviour in this was unbecoming ( including myself).

Well hopefully he went to a BJJ school if he is going to keep accepting these sorts of challenges. His behavior. That's how it is . That's how people behave when they are pushing for it. Name calling. Racist remarks. Spitting. That's the street. Mental game side of it if you prefer. Maybe that's changed too ? I don't hold that against him. Ive been called every racist white name you can imagine. Done my share in return too. Kids , but he is clearly not a kid anymore.

They should have done it in a school. Used rules. I suspect Mr. Springer was not using any rules but funny, it sure looks like he had some conscious thoughts while it was happening. I bet attack the eyes with the iron thumb technique would have made an appearance. Just like with the WW2 guys. How many of you really think you will do that ? Or be in a situation where that is acceptable ? Freaking joke technique for almost anything any of us will ever be in. Because most fights are like this. 2 guys ego's colliding. No open want to kill anyone. They just want to beat the heck out of them.

Now, is there any guys mainly striking only guys that would like to add how well they would do in this ? Reread above before you think, Ill take his eyes. You probably wont even want to. Sort of like , don't let anyone in your personal space crap. You do it every **** day. Ever waited in a line ? Trained right out of that nonsense. Real life trumps your training because your belief system will over ride it. So barring that deadly stuff with the rest you got ? You going to have a better outcome ?

I'm going to be grounded and pounded most likely. It may take him a few to the pounding part but it is coming !!!!

[MightyB]

I assume we can say CMA doesn't encompass any BJJ-like groundfighting.
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There is no perfect MA. It's all about your personal goals.

[boxerbilly]

I assume we can say CMA doesn't encompass any BJJ-like groundfighting.
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There is no perfect MA. It's all about your personal goals.

Okay, don't answer publicly. Just ask yourself. People do not like to admit when they can not win. I have no problems. Ive lost plenty ! Be honest with yourself. Because this type of stuff on the street is not coming. It is already here !!!

In no way am I saying your art sucks or cant handle this. Just be honest with yourself. Can you handle it ? It is to different to the ground stuff I could do back then. I can't compete ! Things that would work against the average HS wrestler back then will as mentioned earlier, get your **** arm broke or feed right into a choke. Not that HS wrestling does not have great moves but it needs more or adding this to work against this. The boxing/ karate I learned, only if I landed perfect with perfect timing. Which I lacked enough against wrestlers so I joined the team. Ill just hammer/chop or forearm his neck coming in. Good luck. You probably override that one too. It could kill they say. You'll drop it 99 out of a 100 times. We are civilized.

[MightyB]

Things that would work against the average HS wrestler back then will as mentioned earlier, get your **** arm broke or feed right into a choke. Not that HS wrestling does not have great moves but it needs more or adding this to work against this.

I'm far from what you'd call an elite grappler, but I've been the guy who's played with the walk-ins at the Judo club, and even the ones who wrestled didn't know how to initiate or counter the submissions.

But, that was their problem - they couldn't imagine a scenario where they just got back up!

The good wrestlers who were in season or just out of season, they could take me down and usually get the initial dominant position, but then they wouldn't know how to finish and they'd stay down too long and I'd catch them with an omoplata. Come to think about it... it was always the omoplata if the person had a wrestling background. They could have gotten back up, played keep away, nailed the big take down, get back up, lather rinse and repeat. A wrestler is usually in great shape. Takedown and then keep away tactics would allow them to "gas" the other person.

I did answer if that was directed at me - page 7 last post

[sanjuro_ronin]

Personally I don't bother with "if he does this I'll do that" scenarios anymore.
Been around enough and fought enough to know that fighting is about doing what it takes to survive and the person who is able to handle himselfs under all ( or almost all) conditions has a better chance at survival.
I have grappled out of grappling scenarios AND I have struck my way out of it.
Whatever works.
What I don't do is panic and what I do, do is assume that the other guy CAN fight, DOES have a weapon and DOES have friends.
IMO, A MA must address:
Striking, Grappling, edged weapons, impact weapons and firearms.
Once you have experience in all these, you are better equipped to survive.

[boxerbilly]

Mighty,

Sorry, missed it. Well you should have some great advantages. As it is closer to what you do. So like you said, who knows? Thankfully, even though it is getting more and more common you are still unlikely to face this with older jerks on the street. So, I bet the average , you could take their feet hard and fast and ruin their day !!!! Good for you man.

[MightyB]

Mighty,

Sorry, missed it. Well you should have some great advantages. As it is closer to what you do. So like you said, who knows? Thankfully, even though it is getting more and more common you are still unlikely to face this with older jerks on the street. So, I bet the average , you could take their feet hard and fast and ruin their day !!!! Good for you man.

I don't "Judo" anymore since I moved. The city club folded and the college club has sh**ty hours, but that doesn't matter... I enjoyed grappling, I did - but I find that the older I get, the more I appreciate and enjoy TCMA. It's a personal opinion but I think CMA is deeper and more fulfilling.

But that's also why I have the opinion that I have. For the day to day ego driven fighting stuff - TCMA is fine. I don't think you need much more than that - be a solid striker. You should know the absolute basics on the ground but - I sh*t you not - everything that a good striker would need to know can be learned from the Gracie University online if they have a partner to practice with

[Jimbo]

IMO, Judo is an ideal art for a child to begin MA training. BJJ is a good choice, too, but Judo has a special place in my heart. They can tussle harder with more safety than a striking art. Plus, it teaches breakfalls which, in addition to the throwing/grappling, toughens and strengthens the body in ways that striking-only arts do not. I think it builds a good foundation for any future MA training, whatever art or arts it may end up being.