Where are all you WC guys?

[Frost]

I really don't think it is that.
I think that because many practitioners do NOT like to fight that many teachers have passed off chi sao as all that is need ( along with some drills).
People get really good a chi sao and don't like doing hard sparring.
I know that it isn't a common phenomena in BJJ BUt I do know of a few guys that just roll ( only ground work) and don't like to spar or anything that takes them outside their comfort zone.
What happens is that we get so good and enjoy being good at a safe and limited skill set that we simply choose not to believe that we need to actually get hit and hit in training.
It isn't just WC either, I know many a kyokushin guy that can't fight with head shots as well as they can without so all they focus on is no-headshots sparring and then make themselves believe that it is enough.

But then those bjj guys probably don't care about anything other than bjj as a sport, as long as they aren't passing off what they are doing as fighting or self defence I can't see a problem, bit like if I ask my judo coach if what we are doing is self defence, he most likely will scratch his head and say we are doing judo a sport??

But if you are passing off your wing chun as a fighting art, as a self defence art and all you do is chi sao, then there is a problem

[LFJ]

Yep that's just excuse making, Kevin made comments about Sean's wing chun, Shaun called him on it and Kevin couldn't do anything other than defend badly, if kevin thought it wasnt going to be a forceful exchange after the things said between the two and adter seeing seans other clips he must be a bit silly

Also if Shauns wing chun is that bad what does it say about Kevins? Or put it another way if they had fought properly does anyone really doubt what would have happened to Kevin??

Why is Shaun sticking up for Sean? Can't Sean handle his own business?

"couldn't do anything other than defend badly"... Interesting. Where did you see defense at all? There's only a passive attempt to roll and allow Obasi to show his method.

And with Obasi not controlling space much and there being many opportunities for counter attack, what exactly was there to stop Kevin or render him unable to do anything else? It's obvious he wasn't intending to.

I know it's fun to jump on the clip given Kevin's talk here, but if you are informed about what was going on that day, and well, just look at it unbiasedly, it's obvious Kevin was being completely passive as it was Obasi's turn to show his ideas.

Kevin appeared not to have sensed hostility because Obasi was fine while Kevin showed him some drills beforehand. Kevin thought they were all good afterward too. But Obasi had some sort of grudge and decided to post it as a "challenge match" apparently to make himself look good (failed). And that's really all there is to it. Uninformed people make judgements while not even knowing what they're looking at.

[-N-]

What happens is that we get so good and enjoy being good at a safe and limited skill set that we simply choose not to believe that we need to actually get hit and hit in training.

This could be posted in so many threads here.

[Frost]

Why is Shaun sticking up for Sean? Can't Sean handle his own business?

"couldn't do anything other than defend badly"... Interesting. Where did you see defense at all? There's only a passive attempt to roll and allow Obasi to show his method.

And with Obasi not controlling space much and there being many opportunities for counter attack, what exactly was there to stop Kevin or render him unable to do anything else? It's obvious he wasn't intending to.

I know it's fun to jump on the clip given Kevin's talk here, but if you are informed about what was going on that day, and well, just look at it unbiasedly, it's obvious Kevin was being completely passive as it was Obasi's turn to show his ideas.

Kevin appeared not to have sensed hostility because Obasi was fine while Kevin showed him some drills beforehand. Kevin thought they were all good afterward too. But Obasi had some sort of grudge and decided to post it as a "challenge match" apparently to make himself look good (failed). And that's really all there is to it. Uninformed people make judgements while not even knowing what they're looking at.

Oh of course i don't know what was going on or what I'm looking at, didn't tha used to be Kevins line? No one understood what he was talking about as no one understood the proper wing chun... Nice to see you carrying on his tradition

of course this argument would have more ground if the clip hadn't been posted before, and pulled apart by people with much more experience in wing chun than you or I

its also telling that the only people to stick up for Kevin in that clip come from the same line of wing chun as he does, keep denying everything it worked last time

[LFJ]

Oh of course i don't know what was going on or what I'm looking at, didn't tha used to be Kevins line? No one understood what he was talking about as no one understood the proper wing chun... Nice to see you carrying on his tradition

Didn't say anything about your understanding of WC. Just the circumstances of the clip.

of course this argument would have more ground if the clip hadn't been posted before, and pulled apart by people with much more experience in wing chun than you or I

Who?

What's my experience?

[Jimbo]

I really don't think it is that.
I think that because many practitioners do NOT like to fight that many teachers have passed off chi sao as all that is need ( along with some drills).
People get really good a chi sao and don't like doing hard sparring.
I know that it isn't a common phenomena in BJJ BUt I do know of a few guys that just roll ( only ground work) and don't like to spar or anything that takes them outside their comfort zone.
What happens is that we get so good and enjoy being good at a safe and limited skill set that we simply choose not to believe that we need to actually get hit and hit in training.
It isn't just WC either, I know many a kyokushin guy that can't fight with head shots as well as they can without so all they focus on is no-headshots sparring and then make themselves believe that it is enough.

Very true.

I might also add that along with a comfort zone comes the concept of 'face'. Quite frankly, many MAists who become attached to a particular style (any style), whether teachers or advanced students, are afraid of possibly looking (or feeling) bad against people and methods they are unfamiliar with. They don't want to be embarrassed by discovering something they've devoted their lives to and advocate to others, or their way of doing it, doesn't work as advertised when faced with the unknown.

When I was a kid, my Kenpo teacher never accepted complacency, in himself or his students. There were always other people and groups invited or showing up for anything up to hard sparring...other Kenpo/Kajukenbo groups; boxers, pro kickboxers, TKD/TSD guys, a Shotokan group. I even remember one time a Buk Siu Lum (Northern Shaolin) guy who came to spar. Sometimes even people off the street. He would spar or fight anyone. Of course, the latter would probably never happen now, but my teacher's openness heavily influenced my views on MA. I remember my teacher once got a black eye sparring a very good female black belt from another Kenpo group, and considered it no big deal.

My second Mantis teacher and my CLF sifu were of the same mindset, which is why I consider these 3 my true teachers. I thank my lucky stars I had teachers who were open-minded and not afraid of new experiences for themselves and their students, i.e., pressure testing their arts/methods.

Without this type of focus, *at least* during the developmental period as a MAist, IMO it's easy to fall into the trap of becoming "style-centric". Obsessing and arguing over whether this or that block (or whatever technique) is perfect or off by 1/8". It then becomes easy to forget what these arts were supposedly developed for in the first place.

[sanjuro_ronin]

But then those bjj guys probably don't care about anything other than bjj as a sport, as long as they aren't passing off what they are doing as fighting or self defence I can't see a problem, bit like if I ask my judo coach if what we are doing is self defence, he most likely will scratch his head and say we are doing judo a sport??

But if you are passing off your wing chun as a fighting art, as a self defence art and all you do is chi sao, then there is a problem

That is Correct.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very true.

I might also add that along with a comfort zone comes the concept of 'face'. Quite frankly, many MAists who become attached to a particular style (any style), whether teachers or advanced students, are afraid of possibly looking (or feeling) bad against people and methods they are unfamiliar with. They don't want to be embarrassed by discovering something they've devoted their lives to and advocate to others, or their way of doing it, doesn't work as advertised when faced with the unknown.

When I was a kid, my Kenpo teacher never accepted complacency, in himself or his students. There were always other people and groups invited or showing up for anything up to hard sparring...other Kenpo/Kajukenbo groups; boxers, pro kickboxers, TKD/TSD guys, a Shotokan group. I even remember one time a Buk Siu Lum (Northern Shaolin) guy who came to spar. Sometimes even people off the street. He would spar or fight anyone. Of course, the latter would probably never happen now, but my teacher's openness heavily influenced my views on MA. I remember my teacher once got a black eye sparring a very good female black belt from another Kenpo group, and considered it no big deal.

My second Mantis teacher and my CLF sifu were of the same mindset, which is why I consider these 3 my true teachers. I thank my lucky stars I had teachers who were open-minded and not afraid of new experiences for themselves and their students, i.e., pressure testing their arts/methods.

Without this type of focus, *at least* during the developmental period as a MAist, IMO it's easy to fall into the trap of becoming "style-centric". Obsessing and arguing over whether this or that block (or whatever technique) is perfect or off by 1/8". It then becomes easy to forget what these arts were supposedly developed for in the first place.

Every teacher I have had has had the "the door is always open" mindset.
I believe that after a time this needs to be passed on to the students of course and that they should be the ones dealing with these issue ( typically when the instructor is old enough to NOT have to fight anymore).

I know that nowadays people ate concerned about the legal ramifications of these things at times BUT the truth is that as martial artists we have a tradition to uphold, one of NOT backing down from challenges and one of representing our chosen MA as a FIGHTING MA.
The moment we can't do that, for whatever reason, it is time to step down and hand over the mantel of "fighter" to another.

There is no dishonour in this, I myself have done it ( though I am still open to crossing hands with whomever feels the need, I do so as MYSELF and not as any representative of any system).
The dishonour is in NOT representing our system and ourselves effectively.

[YouKnowWho]

In CMA, before you learn how to

- throw someone, you learn how to be thrown first.
- hit someone, you learn how to get hit first.

IMO, it makes no sense for a striking art to not learn "how to get hit".

[sanjuro_ronin]

In CMA, before you learn how to

- throw someone, you learn how to be thrown first.
- hit someone, you learn how to get hit first.

IMO, it makes no sense for a striking art to not learn "how to get hit".

I don't think it's that John, I think that chi sao, for whatever reason ( and anything I say would only be speculation) became an acceptable substitute for hard sparring.

When you think about the practical development of fighting skills the vast majority of time must be spent on actually fighting and direct-fighting related drills.
Chi sao is not that ( and never was and never was supposed to be).
It is a sensitivity drill on par with "clinch work" in MT, wrestling and boxing BUT different in the sense that it is developing the ability to "read" via bridging, something that arts that do not bridge can't grasp.
It MUST be developed, yes BUT it can NOT be developed at the expense of practical fighting skills.

[bawang]

traditional kung fu had sparring gear made from bamboo cotton and rattan, and closest to padwork was target punching someone waving a cotton ball stick.

when some hobby lobby moron asks how kung fu dont spar because they had no modern sparring gear, the logical answer is that assumption is false, that is impossible, they must have sparred and used safety equipement. mystery problems in kung fu can always be solved with logic and occams razor principle

[RisingCrane]

As usual Bawang is on point.
How frustrating it must be for some of the posters here-
Along comes a Chinese person (not the culturally generated fantasy) who thinks critically and argues with logic and reason.
He so obviously loves and respects the art without recourse to delusion and fairy tales.
When I think about the amount of cognitive dissonance that must cause here, it gives me hope.

[GlennR]

Oh of course i don't know what was going on or what I'm looking at, didn't tha used to be Kevins line? No one understood what he was talking about as no one understood the proper wing chun... Nice to see you carrying on his tradition

of course this argument would have more ground if the clip hadn't been posted before, and pulled apart by people with much more experience in wing chun than you or I

its also telling that the only people to stick up for Kevin in that clip come from the same line of wing chun as he does, keep denying everything it worked last time

And we''re back!!!
Seems 2016 is 2001 all over again!!!
Hey Frost, how have you been? Good i hope.

Yep, with you on the lineage driven defense of good old Kev, but hey, thats the WC way!

Getting past the whole Kev-Obassi death match, the original poster commented on where everyone has gone from this forum?
My guess is;
- They've moved on from WC (Thats me)
- They've moved on from this forum to go to another one
- Due to over moderation, and the subsequent "dulling down" of the forum, they've moved on (me as well)
- Theyre too old and couldnt be bothered in general anymore

Either way, this forum is done & dusted

All the best........... Glenn

[Frost]

And we''re back!!!
Seems 2016 is 2001 all over again!!!
Hey Frost, how have you been? Good i hope.

Yep, with you on the lineage driven defense of good old Kev, but hey, thats the WC way!

Getting past the whole Kev-Obassi death match, the original poster commented on where everyone has gone from this forum?
My guess is;
- They've moved on from WC (Thats me)
- They've moved on from this forum to go to another one
- Due to over moderation, and the subsequent "dulling down" of the forum, they've moved on (me as well)
- Theyre too old and couldnt be bothered in general anymore

Either way, this forum is done & dusted

All the best........... Glenn

Things do go round in a circle I will give you that Glenn

Im good thanks Glenn still training, have added a bit of strongman into the powerlifting and still training MMA/grappling and the Chinese stuff regularly , judo is hit and miss as that’s hard on the old body!

hope the boxing is going well

I agree with your thinking and assessment of this forum, shame as for all the arguments it used to be a fun place to come and spend a few hours

[mun hung]

Been off for a while because of the "same old same old" conversations. Don't know what to make of that video. It's not the way I was taught sticky hands. It looked more like a shoving match with very bad form. Looks more like "dirty hands" y What can you learn from an exercise like that? Like my SiFu always says "who's going to stick hands with you in the street?" SMH

On the upside, I've never stopped training and opened up a school in my neighborhood. Going pretty well so far.

I always felt that people spent too much time on this forum talking and not training. Was I wrong?