Jong Sao - what is it?

[5thBrother]

Jong Sao - Cantonese, Palm inward block. Knifehand-like high,
outer parry that lies somewhere between a Biu Sao
and a Tan Sao


can any one decsibe for me more clearly what this is .. i think its like a outward knife hand block - like a bent sat sao as a block.. or the outward knife hand block of karate say ...

anyone clarify please?

thanks

[KPM]

Jong Sau is the opening technique of the dummy form in the YMWCK method. Picture it kind of like a Tan Sau that stops half-way. Contact is with the back of the hand rotating slightly outward to clear the center. It would be similar to a Tan that does not rotate to a fully palm-up position. It is used to "break" an opponent's guard position to create an opening. At least that's my take on it. :-) I'm sure others can elaborate further.

Keith

[wingchunalex]

its your lead arm in bi jong (fighting stance, on guard). while wu sau (protective hand) is your rear hand.

[KPM]

I always heard the lead hand in the guard position referred to as a "man sau" or "asking hand" because it is the one in front "asking" the opponent what their intention or response will be. It "probes" or "asks" for an opening. Jong Sau would be a specific technique from that Man Sau position.

Keith

[5thBrother]

thanks guys..

kpm



so its a "block" with the back of the hand and muscles side of the forearm .. kinda like an open hand backfist or back hand slap? wityh a very slight outward ? ...

wcalex


as kmp replied i thought the front hand was "man sao" .. can also be called jong sao in ur school? or is there some difference?

thanks

[5thBrother]

i just realised..

is this aka chan sao? .. does anyone recognise the term

chan sao?


further .. how about gang sao who uses that term? what does it mean to u?

thanks

[yuanfen]

"jong sao" is not a "block" in the common non wc sense of the term.

[reneritchie]

Jong Sao basically means "posture hands". It's most common usage is to describe the way the hands are held in Bai Jong (Assuming Posture). Although not a specific arrangement, the classic one would probably be the Tan Sao (Dispersing Arm) Wu Sao (Protecting Arm).

So, it's not a "block" or anything like that, closer to an "en guard".

[Savi]

Greetings 5th Brother, I’d like to share some details of the Jong Sau from my kung fu family. Jong Sau plays a very important role in our family’s WC because for us, it is the foundation of many other techniques. Well there are other reasons as well… Again, the information below is what I understand from my family only.

Nature:
The nature of the Jong Sau is quite simple. By understanding the details of the Jong Sau you can see one thing is clear. It is designed to protect your center from attack. Being defensive in its nature, the effectiveness of its use (as with anything) depends highly on the practitioner. The other techniques listed below build on this nature. It is said in the Hung Fa Yi family that the center is the origin of everything. Maintain center and you can control yourself. Lose your center, and you really have no choice but to struggle with your enemy. Jong Sau is part of our family WC’s foundational training.

Principles and Concepts:
To make your Jong Sau functional, mentally and physically, you must understand six basic ideas.

1) Go to and occupy center
2) Continuous forward movement
3) Inner and Outer gates
4) Hand replacement
5) Two parts work as one
6) Body unity, sinking the horse to the root

Definition and example:
Jong Sau is translated to “structure hand” in English. This “positioning” of the hands illustrates two specific points in space where everything starts and stops. For example, a punch could be thrown from the back hand position (Wu Sau), but after its extension and recoil it must end at the front hand position (Mahn Sau/Kiu Sau). In our family the Jong Sau is commonly referred to as a 'Two-line offense and defense.' Or sometimes we refer to the Jong Sau as the cross hairs on a gun – a targeting device.

Function:
With regard to combat, it is designed to give you the ability to have a simultaneous offense and defense at a specific distance from your enemy, whilst retaining control your own personal space. To do this, and not jam your own parts, you must be familiar with the structure and mechanics of a Jong Sau.

Space:
Jong Sau takes into account proper spacing of your body’s parts. In the Moy Yat family, the Jong Sau aligns the wrists on the center of the body averaging about one fist and a thumb between the body and the wrist for the back hand, and another ‘fist and thumb’ from the body to the elbow – to measure the extension of the lead hand. Both elbows must be pointed down to the ground as much as possible. The height of the hands is oriented anywhere between the diaphragm and the shoulder height.

From a bird’s eye view you can begin to see the shape of a triangle, using each shoulder as the base and the leading hand as the apex of the triangle. This space is your battlefield, and where the majority of your training is spent defending. Also note that a triangle is more or less a wedge, therefore it implies that to make the ‘wedge’ work it must move forward.

If my description is accurate enough you should see the spacing of the hands depth-wise is symmetrical. Symmetry equates to balance and the efficient use of space, thus giving you the ability to have adaptability at close range combat.

Note:
Jong Sau is also indirectly trained by other basic yet primary techniques of the system such as Paak Sau & Paak Da, Wu Sau & Wu Da, and Tan Sau to name a few. These all share the same mechanics of the Jong Sau and vice versa, but with the changing of the hand position, the function and the effect of its use in essence also changes its nature.

Again, these are just some details I thought could be helpful to you.

Take care,
-Savi.

[yuanfen]

5th brother. Are you doing/learning wing chun now/ How does your teacher do it? You had used the term "knife hand block" in your first post- which comes from non wc perspectives.

Jong sao has many purposes. Not just defense.The first section of the mok yan jong highlights the jong.

It can be part of bai jong as Rene pointed out and you can use
it in an attack.

[Savi]

5th Brother, does your kung fu also have a Jong Sau? And if so, how is it used? What is its nature? Could you describe it for us?

Originally posted by yuanfen
Jong sao has many purposes. Not just defense.The first section of the mok yan jong highlights the jong.

It can be part of bai jong as Rene pointed out and you can use it in an attack.

Jong Sau most certainly serves many purposes as my previous post discusses... To highlight the point, Sifu Chaudhuri's last post supports these comments below.

Originally posted by Savi
*...It is designed to protect your center from attack.*

... In our family the Jong Sau is commonly referred to as a 'Two-line offense and defense.'

... Or sometimes we refer to the Jong Sau as the cross hairs on a gun – a targeting device. (that's @ Bai Jong as Rene points out)

... it is designed to give you the ability to have a simultaneous offense and defense at a specific distance from your enemy, whilst retaining control your own personal space.

... Also note that a triangle is more or less a wedge, therefore it implies that to make the ‘wedge’ work it must move forward.

... Symmetry equates to balance and the efficient use of space, thus giving you the ability to have adaptability at close range combat.

Again, these are just some details I thought could be helpful to you.

Thanks for your time,
-Savi.

[reneritchie]

Savi,

Man/Wu would be another classic. Good point.

Another consideration is whether or not there is "set up" time, ie. whether you know an attack is coming in advance and can set up as ideal a pre-contact posture (inlc. jong sao) as possible, or if you have little or no warning and your reflexes must engage at first impression however they can given the circumstances, and then work to achieve better.

[Savi]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Another consideration is whether or not there is "set up" time, ie. whether you know an attack is coming in advance and can set up as ideal a pre-contact posture (inlc. jong sao) as possible, or if you have little or no warning and your reflexes must engage at first impression however they can given the circumstances, and then work to achieve better.

I think this would be different from Jong Sau discussion. For me to partake in this discussion I can only reference HFY from my information, Rene. I know you do not want to discuss HFY as said in a closed thread, but please refer back to the early Kiu Sau threads a few months prior which discuss HFY's progressions of Fau Kiu - Kiu Sau if you are interested, it would address your question. Either that or perhaps a new thread could be started about your question. But again, based on my experience, the best answer I could give you would be in HFYWCK.

Thanks Rene,
-Savi.

[yuanfen]

With good practice- one can do jong sao without setting up
or getting into bai jong.

[taltos]

Rene,

The inability to "set up" is, in my opinion, one heck of a scary timeframe to find yourself in. When you are caught almost completely unaware, you are arguably in the most dangerous position you could possibly be in. (I say "almost" because at least you ARE aware of the attack, and it wasn't a complete blindside.) For the sake of the discussion, let's say your hands were down and you have almost no time to react, let alone set up, but you did see it coming.

It has always seemed to me that, at least in application, anything you do under those circumstances had better be a recovery. Whether you call it Biu Ji (as debated in an earlier thread), or it's just a biu sau or a mahn sau or a faat sau, You had better make sure that you are doing two things when you act:

1. Clear the threatened space.

2. Recover/regain control of the battlefield.

I've always seen this moment in time as being the "bridgeless" version of when you have lost the line in chi sau. You ARE NOT in control, and you have the blink of an eye to turn that around.

Of course, with proper Bai Jong the risk of that first, bridgeless attack is minimized significantly, but when caught by surprise you have to immidiately go from one step behind to one step ahead. Risky business, to be sure.

In the Yip Man lineage I train, these "emergency hands," designed to clear the area quickly, include (but are not limited to): Biu Sau (high gates), Mahn Sau (high gates), Faat Sau (high gates), Gaan Sau (low gates), Jaam Sau (high and middle gates), Gaan Jaam Sau (high and middle gates), etc. etc., in additon to all of those wonderful Biu Ji recovery hands we train but hope we never have to use.

How does this relate to Jong Sau? From what I've been exposed to, in this situation you really don't have a Jong Sau position, you have a Jong Sau motion. Whatever you did, if it accomplishes the two things above, allows you to "place" your hands where they are need for maximum WC effectiveness. We refer to the perfect Bai Jong hand position as Jong Sau, but it could also refer to the act of positioning your hands.

Just a thought. Anyone else with another take on it?

-Levi