New Alan Orr Force Flow Clips

[Alan Orr]

I am sure that Alan doesn't need my input on this, but the reason you don't "see it" is the same reason you don't see chi sao in a real fighter either.
The drills are used to develop a foundation for practical application which is then developed in sparring.

correct. chi sao and drills are skill development

[Alan Orr]

Asking what it is developing is a valid question. What is the practical skill or characteristic which is developed by doing these exercises?

It is developing many skills. Timing of bow sequencing, control of power, power generation, positioning, awareness of angles, distancing the list goes on.

[Alan Orr]

I don't think what he's showing is just the same as abstract training drills.

Sure, the "force flow" through his body may be invisible but it clearly has a visible effect on the opponent as he manipulates their balance and bounces them around while striking.

This seems to be what they intend to do with it in application.

If not, I'm asking what the goal is then.

Because I've not seen it happen in any of their fights. There is just free striking and BJJ, which is fine and works for them. I just wonder, why not continue to work on the things that actually show up in their fights and not spend time on apparent tricks that don't?

I'm not doing BJJ in my clip. I have showing sequence control of the bows and dealing with pressure. Please read my over new posts. Note to all please post your live sparring of train training clips to show your example of how you develop your skills. That way we can compare ideas and I will be happy to film more clips.

Note to all if you like to meet up then please post your name and location and we can arrange exchanges with me and or my guys and film experiences rather than just guess stuff. Guys that have met me have confirmed it is very different first hand.

[Alan Orr]

Thanks for posting. What is this type of chi sau developing?

On the other forum you called Peter Irving a low level MMA fighter. Where are you based? As Peter would be happy to meet up so you can spar and see the difference of a real fighter of his level. I have taught Peter for 8 years and coached him when he beat UFC fighters and a Bellator Champ. So his level is far from low. You can give your deeper insight to the forum once you have found some balls and sparred a few rounds with him.

[LFJ]

The problem is without the depth of understanding of what we really do, most can not see it. My guys do use these skills in fights. They are how the body is used under pressure and the reason why my guys always seem so strong and powerful. So the goal of this type of training is live pressure timing and control.

Are you saying the goal is not to affect the opponent's balance and bounce them around while striking them, as in the chi-sau clips?

Because while the "force flow" in your body may be invisible, the effect on the opponent would be perfectly visible in fights, but it doesn't happen.

[guy b.]

On the other forum you called Peter Irving a low level MMA fighter. Where are you based? As Peter would be happy to meet up so you can spar and see the difference of a real fighter of his level. I have taught Peter for 8 years and coached him when he beat UFC fighters and a Bellator Champ. So his level is far from low. You can give your deeper insight to the forum once you have found some balls and sparred a few rounds with him.

You want to arrange a challenge match between me and Peter Irving because I identified him as a low to mid level MMA fighter? This is objectively what he is though. There is no shame in it and I am sure we all have every respect for what he has achieved. Why would statement of fact be cause for a showdown?

My point in making the statement on the other forum about Peter Irving was that your student was using the logic that Peter Irving could beat us all in a fight, so we out to just accept whatever you say about wing chun. That is both silly and illogical.

[Frost]

You want to arrange a challenge match between me and Peter Irving because I identified him as a low to mid level MMA fighter? This is objectively what he is though. There is no shame in it and I am sure we all have every respect for what he has achieved. Why would statement of fact be cause for a showdown?

My point in making the statement on the other forum about Peter Irving was that your student was using the logic that Peter Irving could beat us all in a fight, so we out to just accept whatever you say about wing chun. That is both silly and illogical.

Well if his students are actually winning fights and he can post clips of this, and you cant, who are we to believe when you both start talking about what is and isn't wing chun and now it works in reality ....
It used to be the simple logic in martial arts that people that actually fought and did well got listened to when they talked about fighting with their art, i wonder when that all changed

[guy b.]

Well if his students are actually winning fights and he can post clips of this, and you cant, who are we to believe when you both start talking about what is and isn't wing chun and now it works in reality ....
It used to be the simple logic in martial arts that people that actually fought and did well got listened to when they talked about fighting with their art, i wonder when that all changed

I think Peter Irving is more of a friend than a student. He was already an MMA fighter before Alan

There are no wing chun fighters in MMA apart from Alan's. Not sure how many of those are left, initial batch seem to have disappeared. Maybe Aaron Baum is still active, I don't know.

A sample size of 1 doesn't tell you anything about anything.

[Hendrik]

It is this simple, there is no need to keep guessing and argue on a physics phenomenon one don't know by explicit look which one has no idea what one is looking at.

If a person who read my book can clearly know and be able to have a simple experience on what it is, what is the point to keep bugging ALan who study with Robert and me directly on force flow?

Why even waste time?

[Alan Orr]

You want to arrange a challenge match between me and Peter Irving because I identified him as a low to mid level MMA fighter? This is objectively what he is though. There is no shame in it and I am sure we all have every respect for what he has achieved. Why would statement of fact be cause for a showdown?

My point in making the statement on the other forum about Peter Irving was that your student was using the logic that Peter Irving could beat us all in a fight, so we out to just accept whatever you say about wing chun. That is both silly and illogical.

You judge but who gives you the right? Man up and show us why you are able to judge. I'm not talking about a challenge match just sparring. If you are so aware then show us why.

[Alan Orr]

I think Peter Irving is more of a friend than a student. He was already an MMA fighter before Alan

There are no wing chun fighters in MMA apart from Alan's. Not sure how many of those are left, initial batch seem to have disappeared. Maybe Aaron Baum is still active, I don't know.

A sample size of 1 doesn't tell you anything about anything.

Again you say ' you think' which is the same as I have no fu9king clue. I have been teaching Pete for over 8 years and coached him for many of his big fights.

No wing chun fighters? Again your limited awareness is shown again. I have many fighters. Josh Kaldani is 4-0 professional now.

My student Duane Harper as many fighters.

Ale my new female wing chun fighter won her first MMA fight last year and is fighting in 4 weeks.

Ben and Jo won big fights last year.

I have 3-4 guys getting ready to fight soon as well.


In my group we have lots of fighters and other wing chun branches also have fighters so your statement is just foolish.

[guy b.]

You judge but who gives you the right? Man up and show us why you are able to judge. I'm not talking about a challenge match just sparring. If you are so aware then show us why.

You seem to lack perspective and logic. I am not "judging" Peter Irving in a negative way by having a look at his record and using it to state objectively where he is in the ranks of MMA fighters in his weight class. I have nothing against Peter Irving and a statement of fact should not cause him any offence.

I don't know why you are pimping out Peter Irving to fight me because I mentioned facts about him on an internet forum. If Peter Irving does indeed wish to fight me over this apparent outrage then shouldn't he be involved in the conversation?

If Peter Irving and you wish to make it happen, then offer me a fee and I will come back to you. I know this will be hard for you because you generally don't like to pay, but that is what you will need to do.

[guy b.]

Again you say ' you think' which is the same as I have no fu9king clue. I have been teaching Pete for over 8 years and coached him for many of his big fights.

No wing chun fighters? Again your limited awareness is shown again. I have many fighters. Josh Kaldani is 4-0 professional now.

My student Duane Harper as many fighters.

Ale my new female wing chun fighter won her first MMA fight last year and is fighting in 4 weeks.

Ben and Jo won big fights last year.

I have 3-4 guys getting ready to fight soon as well.


In my group we have lots of fighters and other wing chun branches also have fighters so your statement is just foolish.

This doesn't answer the point being made, and again you react in a knee jerk and angry fashion. I don't know which fighters you have because I don't follow your team very closely. I know that some of the original ones have faded out of the picture for whatever reason. It is irrelevant.

The point (in answer to Frost) is that your participation in MMA events does not automatically make your opinion correct on wing chun in MMA becuase no other wing chun fighters participate in MMA. A sample size of 1 allows no conclusion to be drawn about the relative efficacy of your approach compared to others. If we had one other wing chun group participating for 10 years then we might be able to draw conclusions about the relative effectiveness of those 2 approaches in MMA competition. But we don't, so we can't. That is all.

I make the point because of the logical flaws in Frost's argument, not because I wish to insult or belittle you.

[Alan Orr]

You seem to lack perspective and logic. I am not "judging" Peter Irving in a negative way by having a look at his record and using it to state objectively where he is in the ranks of MMA fighters in his weight class. I have nothing against Peter Irving and a statement of fact should not cause him any offence.

I don't know why you are pimping out Peter Irving to fight me because I mentioned facts about him on an internet forum. If Peter Irving does indeed wish to fight me over this apparent outrage then shouldn't he be involved in the conversation?

If Peter Irving and you wish to make it happen, then offer me a fee and I will come back to you. I know this will be hard for you because you generally don't like to pay, but that is what you will need to do.

You want to be paid to spar with him? All I was saying was do a few rounds with him and then make comments rather that guess opinions.

[Alan Orr]

This doesn't answer the point being made, and again you react in a knee jerk and angry fashion. I don't know which fighters you have because I don't follow your team very closely. I know that some of the original ones have faded out of the picture for whatever reason. It is irrelevant.

The point (in answer to Frost) is that your participation in MMA events does not automatically make your opinion correct on wing chun in MMA becuase no other wing chun fighters participate in MMA. A sample size of 1 allows no conclusion to be drawn about the relative efficacy of your approach compared to others. If we had one other wing chun group participating for 10 years then we might be able to draw conclusions about the relative effectiveness of those 2 approaches in MMA competition. But we don't, so we can't. That is all.

I make the point because of the logical flaws in Frost's argument, not because I wish to insult or belittle you.

Your the one that makes incorrect statements. So I am just correcting that.

Post clips of your training or sparring so we can see what your insights are about. At least that way we can see your insight and where your views come from.