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Thread: " Is Wing Chun a Fighting Style ? "

  1. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    I suspect they are more concerned with learning to shoot people than learning empty hand stuff, wing chun in Germany is a well organized well run business, but if this is what the German special forces training is like I'm glad they are normally armed and don't rely on this stuff too much
    https://youtu.be/wgyn7CNhR40

    And much like the seals trained in jkd, what they are forced to train by their superiors doesn't really make the system effective or efficient. Just that it's marketed well
    Frost, I believe only Team 6 contracted Vunak. I may be wrong but Vunak may have been the longest contracted civilian instructor team 6 ever hired. But I do agree, H2H is pretty low on Special Forces needs. Im not sure it is even a official course or ever was. If you asked most of them they would tell you if you need H2H you did something wrong.


    Thank you Cataphract .

  2. #17
    I know nothing about German Special Forces or their training and function. I believe the other group is sort of like SWAT ? For the jobs they face they may rely more on it for arrest ? That's just a guess.

  3. #18
    Oh, I mixed that up. GSG9 uses WT since '90.

    GSG9 are police like SWAT, hostage rescue and such. KSK are military. I have a statement from one of the instructors somewhere. He says that they use hand to hand combat in situations where lethal force would be excessive and potentially in close quarters, e.g. boarding missions.

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Why does he need to throw that many punches to knock his opponent down?

    Should

    - 1 good punch, or
    - 1 good take down

    be enough?

    IMO there are different power generation and mind set between

    - 1 knock out punch, and
    - many fast continuous punches.

    The power generation and mind set for

    - 1 knock out punch is like to throw out a hand grade.
    - many continuous punches is like to shot a lot of bullets from your machine gun.

    In battle field, you will need both.



    Hi John. Always a privilege when you post. I hope all has been well with you sir.

    Thanks again, Cataphract .

  5. #20
    John,

    in your opinion sir, based on your experience and training. Which 1- punch and 1- throw would you focus on ? Assuming training time was limited.

    John, for your heavy punch, what would be your preferred target?

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Which 1- punch and 1- throw would you focus on ? Assuming training time was limited.

    John, for your heavy punch, what would be your preferred target?
    For 1 punch, I will suggest the "hay-maker" to the back of the head. It's the best target to knock your opponent out/down by 1 strike. The 45 degree downward "hay-maker" can be used to deflect all straight line punches such as jab and cross. It's can be used for both offense and defense.

    For 1 throw, I will suggest the Chinese version of "single leg". It's so simple, easy to learn, safe, and can be integrated into any MA system. If your opponent attacks you, his leg has to move close to you, if you are good at "single leg", the opportunity will always be there.

    Both are nice "tools" to have in your toolbox no matter which style that you may train. Again, my suggestion only apply if you (general YOU) believe in "toolbox" approach. If you believe in "pure MA system", you can just ignore this suggestion.

    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-02-2016 at 06:51 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

  7. #22
    Thank you John.

    John, have you yourself streamlined the arts you studied ?

    It is clear you are talking about effective self defense or offense depending on ones belief of when to move. Sadly and maybe that has changed now, not something that was taught me and most of my contemporaries in the different places any of us trained.

    Thankfully I had boxing and please everyone, I am not trying to be disrespectful of any art. Just, I had to take techniques and add to the boxing because as was taught TKD- Isshin Ryu and Kempo seldom even presented. Got together with like minded guys and we did our best to work it out.

    I love the arts. Just about all of them. It is not my lifestyle as some of you have chosen. You are serious about your arts and I highly respect that. I am serious about what the art can give to people quickly. Can we get them there fast. I hope that does not sound less serious than doing Sanchin for 50 years. Different objectives.

    Please, anyone. If you had to your strip your art to what you really believe in, what would you keep ? Thanks.
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 03-02-2016 at 07:20 PM.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Please, anyone. If you had to your strip your art to what you really believe in, what would you keep ? Thanks.
    Jab, cross, hook, haymaker,
    Push kick, round kick, side kick, knee,
    Hip toss, suplex, single leg, double leg,
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  9. #24
    Please, everyone will have a different idea. Some may in fact be more sound but that does not mean the individual presenting may not be capable of it himself.

    This stuff deteriorates quickly on the board to well basically. You suck dude! I'll blast through your defense and kill your momma. Your teacher must suck. My tan lines are better than yours. This is the only real way to tango. One guy wants the science. The next says science sucks.

    So what really goes on his one says you have horrible this or that and the next thing that happens is everyone jumps in for a group beat down. We kicked his ass good and proper. I showed him. F--k that. That's is what really sucks. Let stuff grow and develop. Christ sakes you guys are teachers, teach so your students want to learn from you and really we all learn for each other.

    I know, Billy your a fu-ktard. Not kung fu, go home bi-tch boy. We just want to crush everyone. That's what I mostly see.

  10. #25
    Deja Vu. Later guys.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataphract View Post
    German special forces seem to think it is. Basic hand to hand is Krav Maga. KSK and GSG9 do Wing Tsun.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY2VBP4miEI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUKLC9ZM5zg
    A student of Keith Kernschlecht?

    This guy?


  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Frost, I believe only Team 6 contracted Vunak. I may be wrong but Vunak may have been the longest contracted civilian instructor team 6 ever hired. But I do agree, H2H is pretty low on Special Forces needs. Im not sure it is even a official course or ever was. If you asked most of them they would tell you if you need H2H you did something wrong.


    Thank you Cataphract .
    that maybe so, but seal team 6 has more operators that the whole of GSG9 so its still a good comparison

    as with all these things its about perception, is wing chun actually taught to the whple of gsg9 as part induction training, or does someone come in and offer training ad hoc etc

    i doubt we will ever know but if you are looking for a non lethal way to subdue someone an art which has no grappling, no chokes and no takedowns dooesnt seem the way to go

    But then the German wing chun guys have always been good at marketing

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    This guy?
    The very same. The only alternative with a (much smaller but still notable) number of students in Germany is Philipp Bayer's Ving Tsun. Everyone else has studied under Kernspecht at some point. Emin Avci has been contracted, but KSK and GSG9 have their own instructors as well. There seems to be a discussion about switching to Jiu Jitsu.

  14. #29
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    I will tell you what happens in the SPEC Ops community all over the world:
    As soon as basic training is done, individual units ( or at times individuals themselves) seek out training on their own.
    The following styles have some sort of history within the spec ops community:
    Hapkido, Hwarang Do, TKD, Karate, Judo, BJJ, Krava Maga, WC, JKD, Kali/FMA, Boxing, Wrestling and probably more to be honest.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #30
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    Not SPEC OPS, but in Taiwan I was told that Baji was taught to the military for a while, but sometime in the 1970s(?) or so, a TKD breaking demo so impressed the military brass, they switched the training to TKD.

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