Tong Long Tan Tui/ Praying Mantis Tan Tui

[mickey]

Greetings,

In an interview with the late Lau Kar Leung, He made reference to some of the styles that he studied, outside his Hung Gar. One of those styles was Praying Mantis Tan Tui. Would this be the same style the we would later know as Wah Lum? I had the impression that it was something different because of the earlier name for Wah Lum in Hong Kong was Shantung Mantis. If this is a separate and distinct style from what we know as Wah Lum, is there any other info on it?


mickey

[Tainan Mantis]

Can you give a time line and location when this might have happened?

[mickey]

Greetings Tainan Mantis,

I tried to locate the interview on u tube.

He was wearing a white outfit and demo'd a few styles. Before the demo he questioned the interviewers knowledge of a few styles, as if to say he was familiar with them. He demonstrated Eagle Claw, Choy Li Fut, and a third style. It was edited out of sequence because after one performance, he looked as if he was going to throw up. He managed to control it.

I hate it when I make reference to something and it disappears. Now, I am hoping I got it right to begin with. The demo looked as if it could have been done on the 1980's.


mickey

[Tainan Mantis]

Most likely he is means Wah Lum.
If he trained in the states, or HK. I have never heard of another school that combines wah lum and tantui into their style. Though, it does not mean that he learned it from Chanpoi or his disciples as there were some other members who learned before Chanpoi and taught in closed door clubs, especially for people from HK.

It would be good to get details as there are supposedly some interesting differences between the styles.

About 10-15 years ago I started bringing this up on this forum and outlining the differences. Sadly I have no solid information handy.
There were some video recordings I have seen of non Chanpoi wahlum from China which were very good and helped confirm (to me, since I don't have the videos) that the older wah lum material originally descends from Liang Xuexiang. Access to non Chanpoi footage would allow a lot of questions to be answered about older mantis.

So, still hoping to get my hands on that before I die.

[HualinBR]

This video shows some WL people from Shajing and Hong Kong demonstrating some forms along with the US team. They didn´t learn from Grandmaster CP, so it´s possible to see another interpretation of WL.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzI4MjUzNzI4.html

It was a welcoming party organized by Shajing local government in 2014 to honor Grandmaster Chan. I was in that trip, and we were received with great honors. Later that day we went to a banquet in a restaurant and we could hang out with our WL family from Hong Kong and Shajing. We´ve met some Grandmaster Chan´s sihings, but it seems that they don´t practice or teach anymore.

Tainan Mantis, could you post your thoughts on the forms you see on this video performed by the China WL team? Some of them I´ve never seen, like short staff form.

[mooyingmantis]

This video shows some WL people from Shajing and Hong Kong demonstrating some forms along with the US team. They didn´t learn from Grandmaster CP, so it´s possible to see another interpretation of WL.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzI4MjUzNzI4.html

It was a welcoming party organized by Shajing local government in 2014 to honor Grandmaster Chan. I was in that trip, and we were received with great honors. Later that day we went to a banquet in a restaurant and we could hang out with our WL family from Hong Kong and Shajing. We´ve met some Grandmaster Chan´s sihings, but it seems that they don´t practice or teach anymore.

Tainan Mantis, could you post your thoughts on the forms you see on this video performed by the China WL team? Some of them I´ve never seen, like short staff form.

Most here know that I try not to be overly critical or rude. Yes, here comes the "but".... Most of the things in that video look like a merge of Tan Tui with horrible Southern fist. Absent are the traditional Mantis combinations, theories, keywords, etc. found in Taiji Mantis, Meihua Mantis, Taiji Meihua Mantis, or Qixing Mantis.

People are certainly free to practice whatever they desire and call it whatever they want, but to try and see in it the ancient roots of Mantis based on what is seen in that video is absurd.

[mickey]

Greetings,

To keep things on topic, I think more than enough has been shared about Wah Lum over the years at this forum.

I wonder if the Wah Lum people ever went to Vietnam to see if there are surviving lineages of GGM Lee Kwan Shan.

As far as fusing Tan Tui technique with Praying Mantis, both the Seven star and Northern Mantis styles have, in my opinion, very strong Tan Tui technique. It gives those styles their aggressiveness. Too many of us have been bamboozled by Tan Tui's simplistic nature, depending on the style practiced. It offers much more than fundamentals.



mickey

[mooyingmantis]

Greetings,

As far as fusing Tan Tui technique with Praying Mantis, both the Seven star and Northern Mantis styles have, in my opinion, very strong Tan Tui technique.

mickey

Yes, Seven Star is very rooted in Long fist type striking and kicking.

My comments were not meant as a put down of Wah Lum. I have seen some excellent practitioners of the art. I just believe that Wah Lum was influenced more by the teachings of Tan Tui than the teachings of any of the Mei Hua Tanglangquan families.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I just believe that Wah Lum was influenced more by the teachings of Tan Tui than the teachings of any of the Mei Hua Tanglangquan families.

That may be the case. Tan Tui is the base of the style.


mickey

[18elders]

wah lum is supposed to be a mix of jut sow praying mantis and tan tui.

although it is tan tui based, they do not learn any of the tan tui roads.
as far as the jut sow, a friend of mine rented an apartment to a chinese guy. one day he was at the property and he was wearing
his wah lum t-shirt. the chinese guy asked him about it and he told him is was jut sow mantis and tan tui.
the old guy asked him to perform some of the forms he learned. i don't know which ones he did but the old guy told him
it was not just sow mantis. this guy had learned jut sow in china and had moved to vietnam and was a bodyguard for the president of vietnam.
he had old video of him performing and they had lots of 2 person sets.
i will try to see if my friend remembers his name.

[Jimbo]

Shi Lu (10 roads) Tan Tui (springing leg) was often trained in northern-style schools/systems as a basic foundation for not only some Long Fist styles, but adopted into other styles as well, including some Tanglang (Praying Mantis) schools. I learned it from my second Mantis teacher, but it wasn't mandatory, and relatively few students cared to learn it. In some schools it is mandatory.

There is another Tan Tui, wherein the 'Tan' is the surname Tan; the Shi-er Lu Tan Tui (12 roads Tan's leg). From what I've seen of this version, the toe kicks are focused especially low, like at knee or shin height.

[Tainan Mantis]

Tainan Mantis, could you post your thoughts on the forms you see on this video performed by the China WL team? Some of them I´ve never seen, like short staff form.

Wow, thanks for posting. Is there a way to download this?

Make no mistake, there is real here mantis, nothing to do with the tantui or shuai shou conjecture. Just straight up old school mantis.

At 10:30 minutes you can see it. Don't be mistaken by the lack of practice on the senior's part, it is not perfectly performed, but it is from the old days. At 36m you can see how this type of form can be modified to the point it loses its original meaning.

13:50 Beng bu, pity he felt he had to fancy it up a bit.
Right around 14:00 he shuffles forward with the left palm strike performing it more than once. This is not unique to Wah Lum, but most commonly seen there.

+33m is an interesting form, don't recognize it.

37:17 cool old guy performing what looks like an wah lum style minus multiple southern identities.

All in all, the influence of wah lum after it came down south and later moved through HK and the states makes it difficult to trace what was really there originally, but occasionally it comes through, such as with the odd digong we see at the 10+ minute mark. This material looks more like what was described by Heaven Ascended Taoist under his digong section.

Later branches of mantis decreased the importance of digong within their practice, either relegating it to the last zhai yao form or incorporating digong from other schools instead.

A video I saw in the past had different material and I think more of it.

[mickey]

Greetings Tainan Mantis,

I posted that link here a few years ago.I was surprised that HualinBR held on to it. Someone responded to say they attended that event. They recognized some of the hand forms. If you can find that thread you will have a little more info about what was demonstrated.


mickey

[HualinBR]

Greetings Tainan Mantis,

I posted that link here a few years ago.I was surprised that HualinBR held on to it. Someone responded to say they attended that event. They recognized some of the hand forms. If you can find that thread you will have a little more info about what was demonstrated.


mickey

Hi, mickey! It was me that answered to the post you are talking about! Here´s the link of that thread:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...an-Pui-Footage

GM CP told me that day that most of the seniors that performed on the event didn´t practice regularly, that´s why they don´t display the forms with much energy and athletics.

The forms that they performed and I could recognize were Beng Bu (Big Mantis), Dai Fan Cha (Big Fan Cha), Yin Ching Broadsword, Plum Flower. The two-person set that Tainan talked about seems to be a longer (original?) version of the Two-Men Form regularly practiced in WL.

If you know how to read in Chinese, here goes some interesting links, some of them about people who performed in that event.

http://gzdaily.dayoo.com/html/2013-0...nt_2361047.htm

http://barb.sznews.com/html/2015-06/...nt_3246564.htm

http://www.shajing.gov.cn/xxgk_14947...28_593967.html

http://www.shajing.gov.cn/xxgk_14947...11_615871.html


Here a small video showing some WL students from Shajing practicing:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzYxMTMxNTU2.html

[mickey]

Greetings HualinBR,

So it was you.

The language still eludes me. I think tainan Mantis will appreciate the share.

The other link you posted was nice. Initially, I thought they were doing something like Duan Da, the sister form to 12 line Tan Tui. Then, I realized they were doing drills. It is always nice to see the rekindling is interest in traditions, martial or otherwise.

mickey