Taizu's Longfist is First 太祖的長拳起首

[YouKnowWho]

The "Taizu Chuan" and "Taizu's Longfist" are complete different systems.

This is "Taizu Chuan".

[Mantis9700]

If what we are looking for is a technique...would it be helpful to first eliminate what the technique is not. In other words, is it safe to assume the technique is not a kick, not a trip, not a take down etc. The technique is presumably a strike. So what techniques do taiji, longfist, mantis and other styles have in common that are not the techniques that have been eliminated. Old kungfu seems to be very simple and straight to the point. So what if we look at techniques like that:
A variation of high pat on horse
A simple 1,2 combination like a jab then cross
Or maybe a variation of "stealing the heart"

I leave the rest of this conversation up to the experts.

[Tainan Mantis]

So what if we look at techniques like that:
A variation of high pat on horse

Interesting choice.
Of all the techniques you could have named why did you mention Pat Horse?

[Mantis9700]

Interesting choice.
Of all the techniques you could have named why did you mention Pat Horse?

A combination of reflection and circumstance.
In terms of reflection...you mentioned a single technique so the technique was brought into mantis. Looking at the other techniques/methods of the 18 masters they are not useless complicated techniques. Most of the techniques on that list require 1 or 2 movements and are straight to the point. I would assume this was one of the parameters when mantis was being formed. Techniques that work, are battle tested, have low failure rate and are efficient and easy to understand and can be trained over and over again. Is it safe to assume Taizu's longfist technique would have to meet those same requirements? Taiji is supposedly older than mantis (I will allow the experts to debate that) so what technique in styles of kungfu such as taiji and older than mantis can be found in mantis and taiji and other styles. Still a lot of techniques to consider but that is the fun part about taking apart forms and drilling single techniques and seeing what really works and what doesnt and how easy and efficient the technique is. When doing that I came to hand full of techniques that I mentioned in my initial post.

I did see this before my initial post:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEcygw7T_GM

[Cataphract]

The "Taizu Chuan" and "Taizu's Longfist" are complete different systems.

This is "Taizu Chuan".

If by Taizu Chuan you mean southern Taizu, then they may still have something in common.
First theory: Southern Taizu is derived directly from Song Taizu, adapted to fighting on boats.
Second: Taizu is Yue Fei of Southern Song, who was certainly influenced by the combat methods of Song Taizu.
Third: It is Ming Taizu, when Shaolin Taizu Quan had already influenced the northern long fist styles.

Correction. These theories are not mine. I'm simply paraphrasing.

[Jimbo]

It could also be possible that it refers to a concept, as opposed to a single specific technique.

Also, re: Mantis 9700's idea of discovery through elimination:

At this point, it may be near-impossible to identify which exact technique it could be. Even if it does refer to a technique, being listed as 'Taizu's Long Fist' does not necessarily mean it's a fist punch or even limited to being a hand strike. A high percentage of simple Kung Fu techniques have aspects of kick, strike and throw, even if, in outward appearance, they present as one or the other.

[xiao yao]

It could also be possible that it refers to a concept, as opposed to a single specific technique.

I like that idea. It could just refer to "long range fighting" eg: keeping your distance from your opponent, using long arm and leg techniques

[Tainan Mantis]

It could also be possible that it refers to a concept, as opposed to a single specific technique.

At this point, it may be near-impossible to identify which exact technique it could be.

Maybe it is a concept and not a technique. Maybe it can not be identified.
But, if we have not examined the historical record then how would we know?

Patting Horse was handed down from Taizu, It can defeat all maneuvers and all maneuvers can change into it. It advances to attack and dodges when retreating using the weak to overcome the strong, It is the perfection of short fist.

Looking back at the thousands of pages of military manuals and history books that describe Zhao Kuangyin (Song Taizu) not to mention the huge volume of Qing Dynasty material in the Praying Mantis style, we can find an answer.

Imagine that one hundred (or one thousand troops) are lined up for their first day of training. Would they learn a concept?
I think not. If you were their teacher how would you approach teaching them?

They are lined up in formation learning empty hand techniques to fight in wars were empty hand techniques are useless. did the empty hand martial arts of the day have a method?

For all the styles that purport to teach Taizu's longfist, or any longfist style since they all come from Taizu, how is it that his technique can not be identified?

[mawali]

It would be foolish to think that an army lined up to attack an enemy using boxing methods! Absurd!
The primary weapon, whether sword, spear or any similar shaped object was the tool for destruction of the enemy. Boxing methods were similar as a extra tool to get a weapon or survival in escape/evasion and the like.

Mongols were excellent at wrestling type activities but it is their horsemanship, mobile archery (on horse) and their battlefield tactics that made them feared. The horde was a reality back then

[Tainan Mantis]

It would be foolish to think that an army lined up to attack an enemy using boxing methods! Absurd!

Without a doubt.
But, why do military strategist He Liangchen of the Ming say this?

The study of military arts starts with the fist followed by staff. With a thorough understanding of fist and staff the skills and drills of sword and spear become easy, therefore fist and staff are the root of all the arts. There are Song Taizu's thirty-six maneuvers of long fist, six step fist, monkey fist and Hua fist, though the names are all different they all can achieve victory.
-Zhen Ji

Record of Battle Arrays 陣紀
Probably published during the Jia Jing period (1521–1567) by He Liangchen 何良臣 (1506? - 1600)

[mickey]

Greetings,

You guys have strayed from what created a particular style to how soldiers were trained for battle. Stop dancing already!

mickey