Taizu's Longfist is First 太祖的長拳起首

[Tainan Mantis]

Taizu was the original form in the Shaolin curriculum according to Sal Canzonieri, containing several techniques from several masters. http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle35-TZQ.htm

So, let's take a look at a snip from Sal's opening quote:

There is much controversy surrounding the origin of Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan - 少林 太祖 长拳. People from China 's Henan ( 河南 ) area believe that Taizu Chang Quan was developed in the early Song ( 宋) Dynasty era, under the sponsorship of first emperor Zhao Kuangyin - 趙匡胤. Others believe it was developed during the Ming ( 明 ) dynasty era and is only named ‘Taizu'- 太祖 in honor of either the Song Emperor or even the first Ming Emperor Zhu Yuanzhang - 朱元璋 , who was known as Ming Taizu - 明太祖 and also as ‘Hong Wu' - 洪武 .

So the controversy being that we don't know when it was created or named after what guy, Taizu of the Song or Taizu of the Ming.

The above statement is incorrect in terms of who it was named after and what period it descends from.

Let's start with the who;

The Ming dynasty is full of information on Song Taizu's martial prowess. The list is long indeed and I won't go into it here.
There are novels and plays and historical fiction, not to mention actual recorded history itself that points to Song Taizu as the well known fighter. Troops of the Ming dynasty were being taught martial arts named after Song Taizu as well as weapons forms. For those that could read, they were reading the stories, and for those uneducated they were watching the story on stage.

And the When.

If it is indeed something passed down from Song Taizu he would have learned it, not made it up. Since their method of warfare had been in practice for hundreds of years, they would have thought of it as coming from the last legitimate dynasty as seen from their eyes, the Tang.
Interesting to note that Karate-originally means "Tang Hand."

And the where:
Definitely not Shaolin.
Military didn't go to a temple to learn how to fight from monks. Fighting was conducted on horseback and practiced all day. Monks were in the temple concerned with temple affairs.

Not until after the final fall of the Song Dynasty does Shaolin start a legend of their stick dating to the Mid-1300's.
There is a reliable account of Shaolin Monks in battle , but that was several dynasties and hundreds of years prior.

[Cataphract]

Also, a ‘body shaking' method was used for transferring this internally generated energy; the opening and closing of the Kua caused the heels to alternately press into the ground in such a way that the body was used as a lever to transfer the body weight up the legs, around the hip/waist area (the ‘dantian'), up through the spine, and out the striking area. The Long Fist idea itself consisted of moving this kinetic energy in an attack as one long fist, moving from one arm through the shoulders and back and out the other arm.

This idea was the original use of “tong bi” – “through the arm”, which was pointing and piercing movements for striking.

Then the original meaning of Taizu Longfist would be a certain form of body mechanics.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Then the original meaning of Taizu Longfist would be a certain form of body mechanics.

I say bingo to this, Cataphract.

And those mechanics may have conceptually extended itself to other ways to move to maximize power. So, "Taizu's Long Fist is First", is the framework on which the other techniques are built upon.


mickey

[Tainan Mantis]

It could also be possible that it refers to a concept, as opposed to a single specific technique.

At this point, it may be near-impossible to identify which exact technique it could be.

Maybe it is a concept and not a technique. Maybe it can not be identified.
But, if we have not examined the historical record then how would we know?

Patting Horse was handed down from Taizu, It can defeat all maneuvers and all maneuvers can change into it. It advances to attack and dodges when retreating using the weak to overcome the strong, It is the perfection of short fist.

Looking back at the thousands of pages of military manuals and history books that describe Zhao Kuangyin (Song Taizu) not to mention the huge volume of Qing Dynasty material in the Praying Mantis style, we can find an answer.

Imagine that one hundred (or one thousand troops) are lined up for their first day of training. Would they learn a concept?
I think not. If you were their teacher how would you approach teaching them?

They are lined up in formation learning empty hand techniques to fight in wars were empty hand techniques are useless. did the empty hand martial arts of the day have a method?

For all the styles that purport to teach Taizu's longfist, or any longfist style since they all come from Taizu, how is it that his technique can not be identified?

[mawali]

It would be foolish to think that an army lined up to attack an enemy using boxing methods! Absurd!
The primary weapon, whether sword, spear or any similar shaped object was the tool for destruction of the enemy. Boxing methods were similar as a extra tool to get a weapon or survival in escape/evasion and the like.

Mongols were excellent at wrestling type activities but it is their horsemanship, mobile archery (on horse) and their battlefield tactics that made them feared. The horde was a reality back then

[Tainan Mantis]

It would be foolish to think that an army lined up to attack an enemy using boxing methods! Absurd!

Without a doubt.
But, why do military strategist He Liangchen of the Ming say this?

The study of military arts starts with the fist followed by staff. With a thorough understanding of fist and staff the skills and drills of sword and spear become easy, therefore fist and staff are the root of all the arts. There are Song Taizu's thirty-six maneuvers of long fist, six step fist, monkey fist and Hua fist, though the names are all different they all can achieve victory.
-Zhen Ji

Record of Battle Arrays 陣紀
Probably published during the Jia Jing period (1521–1567) by He Liangchen 何良臣 (1506? - 1600)

[mickey]

Greetings,

You guys have strayed from what created a particular style to how soldiers were trained for battle. Stop dancing already!

mickey

[-N-]

It could also be possible that it refers to a concept, as opposed to a single specific technique.

I like that idea. It could just refer to "long range fighting" eg: keeping your distance from your opponent, using long arm and leg techniques

Then the original meaning of Taizu Longfist would be a certain form of body mechanics.

And those mechanics may have conceptually extended itself to other ways to move to maximize power. So, "Taizu's Long Fist is First", is the framework on which the other techniques are built upon.

That is how we take it.

Not as individual technique, but the overall method of full range of motion, long force body mechanics, and big power.

Also the idea of when attacking, the opponent never can escape the reach of your attack, and when evading, the opponent's attacks always just falls short no matter how hard he tries.

[-N-]

That is how we take it.

Not as individual technique, but the overall method of full range of motion, long force body mechanics, and big power.

Also the idea of when attacking, the opponent never can escape the reach of your attack, and when evading, the opponent's attacks always just falls short no matter how hard he tries.

That is why it is the first.

It's the basic foundation that the student needs to understand.

Learn and understand the long force, big power, full range motion.

Then expand and develop with the other methods.

[Cataphract]

Sal Canzoniere seems to disagree completely here. He says TaiZu uses short strikes. Apropos High Pat

The "signature" movement of Zhao Kuangyin was the Qi Shou Rising Hands, which in TJQ is called Ward Off or Peng.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I think -N- put the appropriate polish to this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJgxJ6JrPkc


mickey

[MeiHuaBR]

Adressing the topic about mantis, could this technique in Beng Bu (0:10) be a reminiscence of the High Pat on Horse, or the only maneuver with Taizu name attached to it, from General Qi Jiguang?



Modern Tong Bei also seems to have some similar techniques.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVpUsRuGG8A

[Tainan Mantis]

MeiHuaBR
I look at the techniques form the praying mantis perspective. We don't have a move called pat horse.

Praying Mantis used different terms. Grouping together the techniques of the first three masters to make longfist.