10 forms are more than enough

[RenDaHai]

Everything in Mantis from Beng Bu to Ba Zhou can be found summed up in the six sections of Zhai Yao ("Summary"). Every other form is anticipation or postscript.

And every word in Shakespeare can be found in a dictionary.....

Old forms are not just catalogues of individual techniques, they are sentences even paragraphs. If you just see the individual moves then you miss most of what the form is there to teach you. Its true that some newer generation forms are just individual moves randomly put together, but old forms always have multiple levels of strategy and rythm and principle. Even if a form contains no new techniques it will say something useful. They don't all need to be mastered but its a good idea (and enjoyable) to 'read' them.



@Jimbo, Yeah, I get what your saying. I see the importance but I am also of the opinion that if you only do MA for self defence that doesn't seem quite right, its like your pushed towards it rather than drawn towards it if that makes sense.

[wiz cool c]

I always hear people say forms are nothing but a catalog of movements, designed in the past to remember movements. forms do much more than just catalog movements, don't you members agree? every time I do a form, I feel my legs being worked out by dropping down in pu bu then raising back into gong bu. If you do the forms over and over again you get a good cardio workout. most forms have some theme like working on forearm blocks, or special kicking techniques etc. so they are training some specific skill. they are good for many things. few will argue though that in our modern times forms practice is taking up an excessive amount of training time in the kung fu schools though. I mean if you have training partners available, why not use them to train with, instead of drilling forms for 95% percent of class time, when forms can be done when you are alone. but I think we know the answer to that one. has something to do with a certain Mr. Dong and a certain past revolution.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Kung fu class training times were usually 2 hours. If you add the before class training and the after class training, you are looking at a minimum of 3 hours training time. If your class is currently only one hour, you owe it to yourself to balance it out. And yes, there "used to be" more than sufficient time for form practice in Kung fu schools.

So, what it really comes down to is this (because it really has nothing to do with forms at all): How much time are you going to commit your practice? It takes Kung Fu to gain Kung Fu.

mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

Studies have shown that we retain movements in different ways, ex:

Gross motor skills are the easiest retained and applied under pressure than fine motor skills.
If you want to retain things quickly for short term, you would do lots of repetitions over a short period of time ( 1000 reps for every day for a week for example).
If you want to retain over the long term, you would do a moderate number of reps, daily, over a longer period ( 50 reps every day for 1 month as an example).
So, gross motor skills are easily trained with the short tem method BUT finer motor skills require the long term.

As for time/length of training sessions, all that depends on the intensity of the training.
You can train for hours if you are working low intensity BUT if you push yourself hard, an hour is great for a high level athlete.
I am, of course, referring to CONSTANT training with minimal variation in intensity ( NOT HIIT since that would lessen the time for half that at best).
Again, the more intense the less you can train.
Forms fall under the category of low to moderate intensity.

[David Jamieson]

Forms fall under the category of low to moderate intensity.

Dude bro...

Northern Shaolin is neither low nor moderate in intensity. lol

It's full blast high intensity.

But yeah, I know what you mean otherwise.

North Shaolin sets is to me the most intense solo workout I've found in Kung Fu as sets go.

[YouKnowWho]

North Shaolin sets is to me the most intense solo workout I've found in Kung Fu as sets go.

During the 3 months summer vacation of my high school year, I had trained the long fist (northern Shaolin) forms

- 6 hours daily, and
- 6 days weekly.

My body was the best shape in my life at that time.

The way that we did was 2 persons in a group.

- When A did form, B watched.
- When B did form, A watched.

So 6 hours training was really 3 hours training (do your form, rest and watch, do your form, rest and watch, ...). This way you can not only did form with your body, you also see the form did by your partner. You can pick up others "flavor".

If I want to relive my live again. I may prefer to spend most of my training time in

- partner drills, and
- sparring/wrestling.

Between the partner drills and sparring/wrestling, I have created another training to fit in between. That is the "single technique testing". For example, 2 persons use "roundhouse kick" only to hit each other. If A uses roundhouse kick to hit B first, A wins that round. Test it for 15 rounds and record the result. You can replace "roundhouse kick" with

- hand on your opponent's throat,
- head lock,
- pick up your opponent's leading leg,
- foot sweep,
- ...

You can use this method to develop/test many individual techniques. There are just too many valuable training that we can spend our training time into it. IMO. we should not spend too much time in just the "solo form" training.

Too much form training may make you a good dancer. It cannot make you a good fighter.

[Jimbo]

IMO, when in a class with other people, it's generally more beneficial to spend as much time as possible in partner training/drills, etc. Take advantage of having live partners right there. Solo form work is better done outside of class on your own. During class, I feel forms should occupy a lesser amount of time, mostly while learning a form or getting corrections. Or maybe as a part of warmup or at the end of class.

Different styles' sets have different characteristics. IME:

Northern Mantis forms are like wind sprints. Shorter but faster-paced than many other styles' sets.

Long Fist sets can be very tiring if done full-out.

CLF sets, depending on the set and how you do it, can be like a 'southern Long Fist'. Not as much low-bending, jump-kicking, running steps, nor as dance-like, nor covering as much ground as northern Long Fist sets, but IMO more aggressive and a great combination of southern and northern-style characteristics.

There is nothing wrong with the grace, coordination, flavor and other benefits developed from forms practice. If they're mostly done on your own, you aren't losing any practice time with others.

I've never liked 'synchronized forms'. Beyond making it convenient to teach a form to multiple people, it has no use. IMO, once the form is learned, continuing to practice it synchronized with other people in a line is a waste of class time and even counterproductive. Because then the concern becomes synchronizing with other people's timing rather than developing your own personal stamp and focusing on what the form is supposed to be teaching you.

[rett2]

Two quotes from above

- When A did form, B watched.
- When B did form, A watched.

I've never liked 'synchronized forms'. Beyond making it convenient to teach a form to multiple people, it has no use.

Thanks to you both for making these points, which express something I've felt for a while. I believe learning form by standing in a large group and everyone is following the teacher is ineffective teaching. It may sometimes be necessary as an expedient, but it's still a very inefficient method.

I've heard people in the west defend that kind of en masse training by saying "it's traditional in China; look at how groups train in city parks". Sure, but even so it's still a bad tradition, not worth copying.

It seems to work much better to learn about 2 or 3 movements a day using the alternating method above. Teacher does the moves, students watch. Students do the moves, teacher watches. Do that tiny bit of the form for a couple of hours. Let the form grow longer and longer each day, doing it intensively till the form is all learned. If a form is really bloated in length (longer than 2 minutes to do) you might need to start from one of the section breaks along the way to get enough reps of the new part.

Just doing form practice solo isn't so good either. At least once in a while you need to do "A watches B, B watches A" with someone else to keep discovering new aspects.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Dude bro...

Northern Shaolin is neither low nor moderate in intensity. lol

It's full blast high intensity.

But yeah, I know what you mean otherwise.

North Shaolin sets is to me the most intense solo workout I've found in Kung Fu as sets go.

My bad, should have specified forms in general because, of course, there are exceptions to the rule.