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Thread: 10 forms are more than enough

  1. #1

    10 forms are more than enough

    Forms are a great training tool, personally I love them. I think they not only categorize movements and document them, but increase many of the attributes necessary for doing Kung Fu properly. I think in recent times however teachers/schools have used them to retain students. I mean how can someone practice sixteen empty hand forms regularly? Weapon forms being the same. My personal opinion 6 empty hand forms is more than enough for a lifetime, that and maybe 4 weapon forms. Then you have basics, conditioning, sanda, partner drills, qi gong etc. To each his own of course, i just don't think it should be expected as the norm to teach and practice so many empty hand and weapon forms, and looked down upon if a schools curriculum has less. I really feel people are missing the point when it comes to form training, in our modern times.

  2. #2
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    You want to grow tall and you don't want to grow fat. To read 100 elementary school books, you are still an elementary school student. You will need to read books from elementary school, junior high, senior high, college, and graduate school.

    If a form can only make you to grow "fat". Discard that form ASAP.
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  3. #3
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    Form is the language of the body. The body doesn't understand words and principles and can only be taught with action.

    When you are reading about a subject would you limit yourself to a set number of books? You do not need to memorise many books, but its a good idea to read many, then after a while language will flow naturally.

    You don't need to remember many forms or practice a large set of them regularly, but it is good to regularly try new forms, bend your body through them, see what they feel like, apply the techniques and see if they resonate with you.

    If you practice the technique 'Chuan Zhang 穿掌' in many different steps, in many different combinations and situations, against many different targets, then eventually the principle of it will fuse into your muscles and bones and you don't need any of the forms any more, your body will naturally assume the shape it needs to power the technique, and your body will easily find the opportunity for its use. But if you only ever practice it one way your body will only be able to use it in that one shape, and then it will never find its opportunity for use.

    Its best not to think about numbers of forms, rather be hungry for training, take every opportunity to learn something new. Only when we are learning are we fully aware, the rest of the time we are just winding down like some lifeless mechanism.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  4. #4
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    I guess it would depend on WHY one does martial arts.
    For fighting no forms are NEEDED.
    If a person is into the tradition of the art then as many forms as the art has is needed.
    Personally I only do 3 empty handed forms regularly and weapons? mostly "free style" forms.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #5
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    I agree that too many (or over-emphasis on) forms is not a good thing. Whether one is into MA for the fighting aspect, or even if one prefers the forms/artistic aspect. As SR said, if one's focus is on fighting, then no forms are necessary at all.

    I'm not sure you that can put a specific number at how many is enough, or too many, though. It all depends on the individual, his preference/interest, and how much he/she is able to actually practice and gain an understanding of them. For some people, two or three forms are too many; for others who "collect" forms, there are never enough.

    Personally, I prefer quality over quantity. For example, many people like to say that CLF has over a hundred empty-hand and weapons sets. Well, name me one person who knows, much less practices, 100+ forms. Even if you learned that many (or even less than half that) and tried to maintain them, you would suck at all of them. You would also confuse one set with another, since there are many common movements/combinations in any style's sets. Then it becomes just collecting a bunch of movements so you can say you learned the _____ form if someone asks.

    That's the problem with schools that hold out more and more forms as enticements. A "more advanced form" will not make someone a "more advanced MAist". There are countless people without any forms (or who appear very mediocre at even simple forms, of which Georges St.-Pierre is but one example) whose true MA and fighting abilities are outstanding.

    Forms-wise, I personally have about a dozen empty-hand CLF forms that I regularly practice, but some of those are very rare short sets. I haven't practiced any of the weapons sets in years. Occasionally, I do targeting and bag work with my long staff. I love the CLF long staff and its applications, and we trained to free-spar with padded staves, but I never particularly liked either of the two staff forms that I learned.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 06-07-2016 at 07:20 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    For fighting no forms are NEEDED.
    .
    I am one of those believers that feels forms have value for self defense. Definitely not by themselves, and certainly not for sport fighting, but if trained with other important areas of kung fu training, like conditioning, two man drills, horse stance/standing post training. Back when I was doing Bagua zhang, I used a few techniques that came straight from the forms, in a couple altercations. Never even practiced those particular techniques in sparring or two man drills either.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Its best not to think about numbers of forms, rather be hungry for training, take every opportunity to learn something new. Only when we are learning are we fully aware, the rest of the time we are just winding down like some lifeless mechanism.
    I understand your point, and if it make that student happy sure no harm done. but personally, i don't want to constantly learn new forms. Boxers must constantly learn and they have what like a dozen techniques in their arsenal. also I think you can constantly learn from material you already know.

  8. #8
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    In BSL we have a large number of forms and your right I dont get a chance to practice them all in one sitting each day (I wish!). Each of our forms concentrates on a main theme so I make that particular session about that theme whether it be kicking, close quarter fighting etc and run through those forms and techniques.

    I think alot of students now learn an array of forms and continually go through the ones that fit them, better to have a variety to pick from in my view.

  9. #9
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    I've learned a lot of forms.

    I am of the view that one form is enough really.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  10. #10
    Learning new movement patterns is challenging, and possibly stimulates the creation of new neural pathways (maybe even new neurons). I believe this has also been shown for social dancing. So if you want the mental benefits, it may be a good idea not to just keep refining the movement systems you've already learned.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    I've learned a lot of forms.

    I am of the view that one form is enough really.

    You mean one really really long form??? :-)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    I am of the view that one form is enough really.
    When I still worked form with my students (I no longer teach form). I had combined 14 forms into 1 (84 moves) so students only need to learn 1 form instead of having to learn 14 forms.

    Those 14 forms are:

    1. long fist Tan Tui,
    2. long fist Lien Bu Chuan,
    3. long fist Kung Li Chuan,
    4. long fist little 5 hands,
    5. long fist Mai Fu 1st road,
    6. long fist Mai Fu 2nd road,
    7. long fist Xi Zi Tan,
    8. long fist Pao Chuan 3rd road,
    9. long fist Si Lou Ben Da,
    10. long fist Shao Hu Yen,
    11. long fist Za Chuan 4th road,
    12. long fist Tai Zhu long fist,
    13, 7 star praying mantis Lian Ja,
    14. 7 star praying mantis Zia Yao.

    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 06-08-2016 at 12:21 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

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  13. #13
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    Form is solo work.
    When you have partner work, you can benefit from what you've learned in form.
    Forms in a style are progressive and repetitive.
    You'll find only one or two new techniques and more of what you've already inculcated from before as you progress through a style that uses forms to teach.

    So long as you work on kicks, punches, throws and locks as well as your conditioning and supplementary skills, then form work becomes less of the cycle while devices and partner work becomes more.

    For me, this equates to one form being more than enough. For me, it's an Iron Thread set.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  14. #14
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    A wonderful thing about techniques trained with your partner is they become more subtle as they progress. As you master it, a swinging arm movement gradually becomes a flick of the wrist.

    A wonderful thing about form is the positions become more extreme as you progress. Your body is capable of leaning further, shrinking itself smaller and extending longer.

    In reality, when your life is danger, when you are moved by some terrifying momentum that comes from within and is beyond your control, it is impossible to make subtle movements.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 06-13-2016 at 06:19 AM.
    問「武」。曰:「克。」未達。曰:「勝己之私之謂克。」

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    A wonderful thing about techniques trained with your partner is they become more subtle as they progress. As you master it, a swinging arm movement gradually becomes a flick of the wrist.

    A wonderful thing about form is the positions become more extreme as you progress. Your body is capable of leaning further, shrinking itself smaller and extending longer.

    In reality, when your life is danger, when you are moved by some terrifying momentum that comes from within and is beyond your control, it is impossible to make subtle movements.

    interesting indeed

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