10 forms are more than enough

[YouKnowWho]

A wonderful thing about techniques trained with your partner is ...

If you do partner drills training,

solo drills = partner drills without partner
form = solo drill 1 + solo drill 2 + ...

You no longer need to learn any forms.

[RenDaHai]

Oh you don't need martial arts at all, there are far better ways of fighting.

But if you feel that draw, then you cannot get around some individual training. Many techniques will not reach their full expression with a partner. You will never strike them fully, you will need to hit things or air sometimes.

Many people think hitting air is useless. But I have enough experience with fights to know there is always a lot of hitting air. Almost every fight I have seen someone throws a punch or kick that doesn't hit its target when it clearly could have. I used to think it was bad training and inexperience. But after seeing experienced well trained people hit the air in front of someone I realised it is not experience or training but perhaps the lack of a firm will. After seeing determined people do it also I realised it cannot be this. And after doing it myself sometimes and not others I came to the conclusion that it is nature.

Consciously or not sometimes our body will not let us hit the opponent. Why this is one will have to ask a psychologist. But one thing I do know is that this behaviour cannot be changed by ordinary training. People will tell you its a bad habit, but its not a habit at all. It may seem like a terrible strategy, but instead of trying to (and believing that) you have changed your nature, I find it better to just go with it.

The greater part of fighting is MISSING not hitting. Best to train that too.

[Jimbo]

A wonderful thing about techniques trained with your partner is they become more subtle as they progress. As you master it, a swinging arm movement gradually becomes a flick of the wrist.

A wonderful thing about form is the positions become more extreme as you progress. Your body is capable of leaning further, shrinking itself smaller and extending longer.

In reality, when your life is danger, when you are moved by some terrifying momentum that comes from within and is beyond your control, it is impossible to make subtle movements.

Nice post.

Although forms are not necessary to learn how to fight, I do feel that form practice is (or can be) a very beneficial aspect of training. Forms contain "idealized" movements and postures that put the body into positions that would not occur in the same manner with a partner or opponent. There is benefit to this greater extension and contraction of movement. It also develops a unique form of self-awareness and body discipline; one becomes (or strives to become) aware of the position of each body part and what each is doing, simultaneously, without getting hung up on it.

Now, someone can argue that you develop this type of awareness solely by partner training, which is true in some instances, such as in grappling. But forms practice can be another way of getting there without a partner, and I haven't found that it's ever had any negative effects on my sparring or fighting. In some ways, quite the opposite.

I am not of the belief that practicing forms somehow holds you back. It depends on how you approach it. If one's forms practice is merely going through the motions to maintain a bunch of material out of a sense of duty without digging any deeper, or to simply accumulate more and more forms so one can say, "I also have the ______ set", then it probably won't benefit you beyond perhaps satisfying an interest. Superficially maintaining a bunch of forms just to maintain them is like perpetually owing money.

There are some who believe the more forms someone knows, the better his/her Kung Fu. Then the opposite extreme are those with 'formophibia'; those who feel that forms practice is either detrimental to one's progress, or who do practice forms but seem almost ashamed of it. To each his/her own, but IME, forms are simply one aspect of training in most CMA, not to be taken out of context to either extreme. Whether one chooses to continue practicing them beyond a certain point or not is up to the individual. But certainly, 10 to 20 minutes (or more, if you like) of practicing one's forms as a *part* of training is, at the very least, more beneficial than the hours a day most people seem to spend addicted to texting, playing video games and taking 'selfies' on their iPhones.

[wiz cool c]

If you do partner drills training,

solo drills = partner drills without partner
form = solo drill 1 + solo drill 2 + ...

You no longer need to learn any forms.

if you are training for sport fighting sure you don't need forms, but as martial artists forms are part of the art. Forms have many benefits. they are a good form of exercise, can be done without any equipment or a training partner, they teach your body all kinds of important lesson in kung fu [at least I feel they do].as for self defense benefits I also feel they have many, but not from training forms alone. they need to be done along with standing post, or horse stance training, conditioning like iron palm and arm banging etc. just my opinion.

[David Jamieson]

if you are training for sport fighting sure you don't need forms, but as martial artists forms are part of the art. Forms have many benefits. they are a good form of exercise, can be done without any equipment or a training partner, they teach your body all kinds of important lesson in kung fu [at least I feel they do].as for self defense benefits I also feel they have many, but not from training forms alone. they need to be done along with standing post, or horse stance training, conditioning like iron palm and arm banging etc. just my opinion.

Forms are a method of learning solo practice. They contain techniques, but that technique is not of any use until it is actually applied.

Reading a book and writing a book are two utterly different things.

Be careful not to ascribe too much to the mundane.

[wiz cool c]

well same can be said for shadow boxing, or any other solo training method. of course it needs to be practiced with a partner and practiced along with other methods.

[wiz cool c]

My teacher likes to mention though that the application of a specific form is flexible, and every technique does not have to be [grab guy with left hand .strike with right etc]. For example I just learned a new form which uses an open hand block/grab. Yesterday my wife and I were playing around and she comes at me with a staff, I blocked and simultaneously grabed it with the same hand[as done in that form] then I did a raising kick to her lead hand which broke that gripping hand's hold on the staff. This kick is done in many Shaolin forms where you kick your own hand. This application was a free response and made me think of what my teacher said about techniques being flexible.

[David Jamieson]

well same can be said for shadow boxing, or any other solo training method. of course it needs to be practiced with a partner and practiced along with other methods.

Progressive learning demands it.
Without the final aspect of martial art being practiced, then the martial art cannot be mastered.
being a master of an art demands that you are able to apply it. NOt to be a great coach or to produce amazing artists.
But to claim mastery is to be a master.
Doesn't mean you won't lose either.

Ali was a master of pugilism for instance. No one denies that. But he did lose fights.
All the kings of the hill get knocked down eventually and that takes away nothing from them.
But if you never go there, we'll, it's not right to say you've been.

But I digress.

[wiz cool c]

Progressive learning demands it.
Without the final aspect of martial art being practiced, then the martial art cannot be mastered.
being a master of an art demands that you are able to apply it. NOt to be a great coach or to produce amazing artists.
But to claim mastery is to be a master.
Doesn't mean you won't lose either.

Ali was a master of pugilism for instance. No one denies that. But he did lose fights.
All the kings of the hill get knocked down eventually and that takes away nothing from them.
But if you never go there, we'll, it's not right to say you've been.

But I digress.

dude do you talk for the sake of hearing yourself talk, or in this case write for the sake or reading your own writing. I mean what the heck are you talking about? did anyone say you do forms means you don't practice application or spar or apply what they learn in a form?

[David Jamieson]

dude do you talk for the sake of hearing yourself talk, or in this case write for the sake or reading your own writing. I mean what the heck are you talking about? did anyone say you do forms means you don't practice application or spar or apply what they learn in a form?

You stated:

if you are training for sport fighting sure you don't need forms, but as martial artists forms are part of the art. Forms have many benefits. they are a good form of exercise, can be done without any equipment or a training partner, they teach your body all kinds of important lesson in kung fu [at least I feel they do].as for self defense benefits I also feel they have many, but not from training forms alone. they need to be done along with standing post, or horse stance training, conditioning like iron palm and arm banging etc. just my opinion.

Not sure why you're upset with me here.

[Firehawk4]

Whats the difference between the long fist systems like cha chuan long fist systems and the northern Shaolin systems like the forms Su da ,chum sam , plum flower ?

[Neeros]

Oh you don't need martial arts at all, there are far better ways of fighting.

I realised it is not experience or training but perhaps the lack of a firm will. Consciously or not sometimes our body will not let us hit the opponent. Why this is one will have to ask a psychologist.

I'm having trouble with the first part of this, that there are better ways of fighting than martial arts. Martial arts are by definition the arts of war that have been through trial by fire and survived. Street fighting between people who haven't been trained can be effective, but it is primitive, much like how the martial arts that have been passed down were when they were first being established. Street fighters will find tricks and moves that work better than others and use those, then maybe refined further and further through more experience. However the martial arts that we have inherited went through the same process over many generations and have been crystallized into the best ways of moving, attacking, and defending. That just leaves it up to the individual to gain their own fighting experience.

That is quite a fascinating point though that a lack of conviction in a strike is a lack of firm will. Very interesting.

Nice post.

Although forms are not necessary to learn how to fight, I do feel that form practice is (or can be) a very beneficial aspect of training. Forms contain "idealized" movements and postures that put the body into positions that would not occur in the same manner with a partner or opponent.

Dunno bout that, I train my hardest to make it so that my techniques in partner drills and sparring are growing closer and closer to that idealization, just for the purpose of having the idealized benefits that those movements have been crystallized to contain.

[RenDaHai]

I'm having trouble with the first part of this, that there are better ways of fighting than martial arts. Martial arts are by definition the arts of war that have been through trial by fire and survived.

Right, I get what your saying sure. My meaning was more that if your only concern was being attacked in the street then learning about the local area, awareness and a handgun and group tactics may be more useful than spending that time on personal barehanded martial arts. And if your looking for trouble then certainly longer term insidious strategies I think would be better than direct confrontation. As in there are many ways to fight that are not so direct.

Slightly off topic but there is an interesting dialogue in Plato where 2 generals are discussing the merits of training 'fighting with armour on'. This is like ancient greek 'kung fu' where people trained specifically personal weapons techniques while in full armour. The first general says it is completely useless since the group strategy is all that matters, individual techniques are not useful and even detrimental. The 2nd General is arguing that it has some merits while retreating. Then they end with an anecdote about a martial arts master who made his own weapon, a staff with a scythe on the end. When his ship came in contact with the enemy ship his scythe-staff was caught in the rigging of the enemy ship and he was dragged along deck and everyone on both sides laughed at him. I digress, it just came to mind.

[Jimbo]

Right, I get what your saying sure. My meaning was more that if your only concern was being attacked in the street then learning about the local area, awareness and a handgun and group tactics may be more useful than spending that time on personal barehanded martial arts. And if your looking for trouble then certainly longer term insidious strategies I think would be better than direct confrontation. As in there are many ways to fight that are not so direct.

Good points, especially about area and situational awareness. However, barehanded martial arts do have their place, and IMO a very important one regarding self-defense. Obviously, not everyone needs empty-handed MA training to be able to defend themselves. But self-defense is not just on the street, or in situations where a gun would be legally appropriate (or even practical).

Firstly, not everyone can obtain a permit to legally carry a firearm; in fact, worldwide, including in most(?) U.S. states and especially cities within those states, it's VERY difficult for most average, law-abiding citizens.

Secondly, even if an average citizen can legally carry a gun, it's a huge commitment. Besides the necessary training and familiarity with the weapon, as well as with legal issues involving firearms, carrying, especially concealed, can be somewhat of a hassle. There must be a comfortable enough carry system that allows for quick and easy access, if needed. If you're into physical recreational activities, you have to constantly shift your attention to removing and putting the rig back on, or somehow keeping it out of the way. And in many venues, such as gov't buildings, sporting events, amusement parks, airports,etc., etc., you cannot take even a harmless miniature Swiss Army penknife with you, let alone a firearm. Attacks may also occur at inconvenient times and places, where you will be completely unarmed, or in crowded places where you wouldn't want any stray bullets.

Thirdly, many people believe a gun is a cure-all that will automatically keep them safe. Which isn't always true. Just as with barehanded MA, many people with firearms panic or freeze under pressure/lack full commitment/conviction during a real-life situation, lose physical coordination/accuracy, etc., even if they've had firearm training.

MA training which includes pressure testing, can indeed be a great supplement for training to use a handgun or other firearm. There can be a lot of carry-over benefits.

*Sorry for taking the thread further OT*, but thought I would give some of this a mention, because many people (not you, RenDaHai) say "If you want self-defense, get a gun," as if that will solve all potential problems.

[mooyingmantis]

Everything in Mantis from Beng Bu to Ba Zhou can be found summed up in the six sections of Zhai Yao ("Summary"). Every other form is anticipation or postscript.