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Thread: Adducting the Knees in YJKM

  1. #1
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    Adducting the Knees in YJKM

    Hello,

    I wanted to start a discussion on the importance or lack of it in training Adduction of the legs/knees in the SNT stance.
    Is this an important thing to train and if so why? If not why not?
    How does one train adduction?
    What is the focus of the stance for training? ie: forming a Triangle or Pyramid and what lines does one try to direct force towards?
    Are there any specific exercises or props one can use to train this principle?
    What benefits, if any, does training to adduct provide for actual usage in combat?

    With the various lineages and approaches on the forum I would be interested in getting other viewpoints on this subject.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  2. #2
    I don't really buy into the concept of adducting the knees so much as them coming in naturally with the direction of the toes. You shouldn't try to force them in so much as lower yourself in the stance, which is important because it provides for a proper structure of head over hips over feet, which makes it so that you can't be uprooted or pushed back as easily.
    Last edited by Marnetmar; 06-28-2016 at 02:07 PM.

  3. #3
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    Hello,

    I agree one should not force the position.
    The YJKM is not a natural stance so it must be trained in order to allow one to pose it without straining.
    However, I guess what I am getting at is how do you train to be able to resist incoming force without adducting the knees/legs?
    How do you train to redirect the incoming force? Or do you?
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hello,

    I agree one should not force the position.
    The YJKM is not a natural stance so it must be trained in order to allow one to pose it without straining.
    However, I guess what I am getting at is how do you train to be able to resist incoming force without adducting the knees/legs?
    How do you train to redirect the incoming force? Or do you?
    I do not 'adduct' the knees so can't really add much to this discussion.
    We use a four phase opening which puts ones horse width in a natural alignment (IMO) and basically creates a pyramid base under ones COG.
    Dealing with force? Footwork, turning, etc.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    I do not 'adduct' the knees so can't really add much to this discussion.
    We use a four phase opening which puts ones horse width in a natural alignment (IMO) and basically creates a pyramid base under ones COG.
    Dealing with force? Footwork, turning, etc.
    My lineage uses a stance with feet parallel. The knees come in slightly, but they are not pulled or forced in. The stance should be reasonably comfortable, hanging together on the tendons rather than flexed muscles, though complete relaxation is of course impossible.

    I quite often see beginners trying to force the stance really low or really wide in the form, which IMO is a mistake - "make your everyday stance your fighting stance, and your fighting stance your everyday stance" - M. Mushashi (it might have been the other way around)

    I'm using spine and hip alignment, - or the seven bows, if that's what floats your boat - to deal with incoming force in this stance.

    TBH, if I'm trying to absorb or deliver significant force, I'll be doing it from a 50/50 front stance, not YGKYM. A bit of wrestling work will be good as anything to help you learn to absorb or apply force IMO.
    Last edited by anerlich; 06-28-2016 at 11:10 PM.
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  6. #6
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    About absorbing force , there are two ways of training , active and passive . Passive includes some two man drills and work with equipment , active is simple chi sao with full force applied , real punches ...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    actual usage in combat ...
    The inward stance can be used to

    - bite your instep on your opponent's ankle,
    - use your shin to press on the side of his leg, and
    - take him down (or just sense where your opponent's leading leg is).

    In WC, it's used mainly to "build leg bridge - sense and control your opponent's leading leg".

    The more that your toes can bend inward, and the closer that your knee can drop to the ground, the more "biting power" that your leg can develop.

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    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 06-29-2016 at 04:52 AM.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    I do not 'adduct' the knees so can't really add much to this discussion.
    We use a four phase opening which puts ones horse width in a natural alignment (IMO) and basically creates a pyramid base under ones COG.
    Dealing with force? Footwork, turning, etc.
    I would be interested in learning more about this "four phase opening"

    In my lineage we open by placing the toes out, then heels then toes and heels again.
    So, it kind of is like 4 phases or positions.
    The ending is with the feet about shoulder width apart and the knees drawn in slightly.
    You should be sitting and relaxed as much as possible but, for training there should be some tension in the upper inner thighs to strengthen the stance.
    May not be explaining this right but the idea is not to have tension as much as possible but when one has incoming force you try to direct it downward and it is the "adduction" of the knees which allows you to project the force into the ground. Without at least some tension the stance will fail and you have no stability. Again, not sure if this is being explained clearly.

    I am more curious about how others train students to deal with incoming force. Rooting if you will.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    My lineage uses a stance with feet parallel. The knees come in slightly, but they are not pulled or forced in. The stance should be reasonably comfortable, hanging together on the tendons rather than flexed muscles, though complete relaxation is of course impossible.

    I quite often see beginners trying to force the stance really low or really wide in the form, which IMO is a mistake - "make your everyday stance your fighting stance, and your fighting stance your everyday stance" - M. Mushashi (it might have been the other way around)

    I'm using spine and hip alignment, - or the seven bows, if that's what floats your boat - to deal with incoming force in this stance.

    TBH, if I'm trying to absorb or deliver significant force, I'll be doing it from a 50/50 front stance, not YGKYM. A bit of wrestling work will be good as anything to help you learn to absorb or apply force IMO.

    Agree on the parallel feet...and about the Musashi bit! Good stuff.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    I would be interested in learning more about this "four phase opening"

    In my lineage we open by placing the toes out, then heels then toes and heels again.
    So, it kind of is like 4 phases or positions.
    The ending is with the feet about shoulder width apart and the knees drawn in slightly.
    You should be sitting and relaxed as much as possible but, for training there should be some tension in the upper inner thighs to strengthen the stance.
    May not be explaining this right but the idea is not to have tension as much as possible but when one has incoming force you try to direct it downward and it is the "adduction" of the knees which allows you to project the force into the ground. Without at least some tension the stance will fail and you have no stability. Again, not sure if this is being explained clearly.

    I am more curious about how others train students to deal with incoming force. Rooting if you will.
    Hi Dave. Yes, it is as you stated. 4 phases or positions as the horse is built from a feet together start.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    Hi Dave. Yes, it is as you stated. 4 phases or positions as the horse is built from a feet together start.
    I don't use that opening. I use two circling steps to open the stance for the form.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    I don't use that opening. I use two circling steps to open the stance for the form.
    Hi Anerlich. Not to derail Dave's post but do you use that opening sequence for all three forms? And, do your feet lift up off the ground to do your circling steps? Or do they lightly scrape or float over the floor as they travel? Thx.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by wckf92 View Post
    Hi Anerlich. Not to derail Dave's post but do you use that opening sequence for all three forms? And, do your feet lift up off the ground to do your circling steps? Or do they lightly scrape or float over the floor as they travel? Thx.
    Yes, all 3 forms.

    "Lightly float" is probably the best description. about a millimetre off the ground. With occasional very light scraping.
    Last edited by anerlich; 06-30-2016 at 05:39 AM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  14. #14
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    Interesting, I was taught the 4 part method for the SNT and CK and the circling step for the BJ.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Interesting, I was taught the 4 part method for the SNT and CK and the circling step for the BJ.
    4 part method for all three...but BJ circle steps as well, just later in that form.

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