Adducting the Knees in YJKM

[anerlich]

4 part method for all three...but BJ circle steps as well, just later in that form.

Circle steps appear elsewhere in my CK and BJ also. Do not use the 4 part method anywhere.

[wckf92]

I am more curious about how others train students to deal with incoming force. Rooting if you will.

Dave, can you provide an example to your question to further the discussion? Thx man.

[Sihing73]

Dave, can you provide an example to your question to further the discussion? Thx man.

Well, let's consider someone standing in YJKM and have a partner press against their chest or arms.
Play around with differing weight placement to determine balance points.
For example if rear weighted on the heel can you direct the incoming force downwards and if so how do you do it?
Do you sink and if so do you lean backwards or do you have to make a conscious effort to lean forward to compensate for the incoming force?
Do this with weight placement on the heels and balls as well.

Now to my thinking and approach you should have your weight about center of foot, actually slightly below the center where the ankle connects.
You should be sinking or sitting with feet about shoulder width apart and knees turned in slightly. No need to exaggerate the turn of the knees but having some inward turn is, imo, important to allow the formation of a triangle for the force.

When the force is applied you should try to direct it downward and slightly forward into the ground using the knees.
If you simply try to direct the force straight down into the ground what happens?
If you try to direct the incoming force down and slightly forward into the ground, think of a three legged stool with the legs two of the three legs and the force vector (egads a Hendrik word ) a virtual third leg, what happens?

Just off the top of my head early this morning but hope it helps to get the idea across.
Also this is for training purposes but the skills developed can carry over to combat, imho.

[zuti car]

Adducting the knees is not important , it is enough that knees are slightly bent , also stance can be shoulder wide or wider but even if it is narrower than shoulders it is not so important . What is important is position of what Chinese call "kwa" . Proper position will allow absorption of the force . If the knees are slightly bent and spine and pelvic area are in proper alignment weight will naturally "fall" on the balls of the feet.

[LFJ]

...weight will naturally "fall" on the balls of the feet.

Natural stance for humans is weighted over mid-foot. Sinking the stance and tilting the pelvis while keeping the spine in vertical alignment won't change that. You must be pressing your hips forward and shifting your center of gravity over the balls of your feet.

[wckf92]

Well, let's consider someone standing in YJKM and have a partner press against their chest or arms.
Play around with differing weight placement to determine balance points.
For example if rear weighted on the heel can you direct the incoming force downwards and if so how do you do it?
Do you sink and if so do you lean backwards or do you have to make a conscious effort to lean forward to compensate for the incoming force?
Do this with weight placement on the heels and balls as well.

Now to my thinking and approach you should have your weight about center of foot, actually slightly below the center where the ankle connects.
You should be sinking or sitting with feet about shoulder width apart and knees turned in slightly. No need to exaggerate the turn of the knees but having some inward turn is, imo, important to allow the formation of a triangle for the force.

When the force is applied you should try to direct it downward and slightly forward into the ground using the knees.
If you simply try to direct the force straight down into the ground what happens?
If you try to direct the incoming force down and slightly forward into the ground, think of a three legged stool with the legs two of the three legs and the force vector (egads a Hendrik word ) a virtual third leg, what happens?

Just off the top of my head early this morning but hope it helps to get the idea across.
Also this is for training purposes but the skills developed can carry over to combat, imho.

I'm not a fan of "pressing" or "pushing" against a students chest or arms while in YJKYM. Personally, I don't see the relevance. I use more of a ballistic approach. Slowly pushing or pressing bares little semblance to what it will be like in high stress situations / real life. etc.

[zuti car]

Natural stance for humans is weighted over mid-foot. Sinking the stance and tilting the pelvis while keeping the spine in vertical alignment won't change that. You must be pressing your hips forward and shifting your center of gravity over the balls of your feet.

There are more than one type of "structure" in wing chun . One more thing , people invented different kind of stances because natural stance and weight distribution are not the best solutions for fighting

[Sihing73]

I'm not a fan of "pressing" or "pushing" against a students chest or arms while in YJKYM. Personally, I don't see the relevance. I use more of a ballistic approach. Slowly pushing or pressing bares little semblance to what it will be like in high stress situations / real life. etc.

Again, this is only for training and represents a starting point.

Please explain some methods you use for training.

This is a discussion not a flaming attempt.
Each of us will doubtless have various methods and we may not all agree with one another.
However, there is little reason we cannot discuss and even disagree without being civil

[Sihing73]

Adducting the knees is not important , it is enough that knees are slightly bent , also stance can be shoulder wide or wider but even if it is narrower than shoulders it is not so important . What is important is position of what Chinese call "kwa" . Proper position will allow absorption of the force . If the knees are slightly bent and spine and pelvic area are in proper alignment weight will naturally "fall" on the balls of the feet.

Zuti,

Please expand on your view.
If stance width, position of the legs and degree of bend of the knees are not important and adduction of the kness does not matter why are such things taught?
Again not trying to flame or start a negative discourse but interested in your approach.

[wckf92]

Again, this is only for training and represents a starting point.

Please explain some methods you use for training.

This is a discussion not a flaming attempt.
Each of us will doubtless have various methods and we may not all agree with one another.
However, there is little reason we cannot discuss and even disagree without being civil

Hi Dave.
Apologies if my post came across as being uncivil. It wasn't meant to. I guess I need to work on my writing style! I'm not sure what a 'flaming attempt' is(?) Anyway, no worries.
To expand a little: once the student is in his YJKYM, I will do pushing/pressing only a little bit. Once this is done, I'll do a little bit of hitting/striking to observe their YJKYM reaction.
Then, I'll have them turn or shift and perform the same sort of 'awareness' drills...so they get a frontal, and side appreciation for what their YJKYM is about, given their specific body structure.
As time goes by (weeks, months?) and they are comfortable and confident, more dynamic drills are introduced.
A major part of being able to have a good solid YJKYM (regardless of what you are doing, i.e. static, turning/shifting, dynamic/moving) is doing a lot of post training.

[Sihing73]

Hi Dave.
Apologies if my post came across as being uncivil. It wasn't meant to. I guess I need to work on my writing style! I'm not sure what a 'flaming attempt' is(?) Anyway, no worries.
To expand a little: once the student is in his YJKYM, I will do pushing/pressing only a little bit. Once this is done, I'll do a little bit of hitting/striking to observe their YJKYM reaction.
Then, I'll have them turn or shift and perform the same sort of 'awareness' drills...so they get a frontal, and side appreciation for what their YJKYM is about, given their specific body structure.
As time goes by (weeks, months?) and they are comfortable and confident, more dynamic drills are introduced.
A major part of being able to have a good solid YJKYM (regardless of what you are doing, i.e. static, turning/shifting, dynamic/moving) is doing a lot of post training.

Not directed at you, my comments were just in case I came across as uncivil.
Political Correctness will be the end of us all, lol.
In my younger days I tended to speak more directly and while I have mellowed I still sometimes speak too direct for some.

Your approach sound similar to how I was taught.

An interesting observation is that sometimes students are more mobile and less stable.
For example in some lineages shifting is used while in others stepping is more prevalent.

Would be curious in how others feel as regards whether one should be more "stable" or more "mobile"?
In other words to deal with an incoming attacker would you rather shift or step?

[wckf92]

For example in some lineages shifting is used while in others stepping is more prevalent.

Would be curious in how others feel as regards whether one should be more "stable" or more "mobile"?

In other words to deal with an incoming attacker would you rather shift or step?

I think one must be comfortable with stability first, then move on to mobility.

As for your last question...there is no simple answer IMO. Situationally dependent...etc. Some are trained to crash; some to side step, some to use knife footwork, some make the opponent turn/shift/step.

[zuti car]

Zuti,

Please expand on your view.
If stance width, position of the legs and degree of bend of the knees are not important and adduction of the kness does not matter why are such things taught?
Again not trying to flame or start a negative discourse but interested in your approach.

I know you do not have any negative intention, there is no need to put that in every post . Anyway , width of the stance is not important in a sense that it can be little wider or little narrower than shoulder width . Stance cannot be too wide or the structure will be broken , and it must be wide at least as width of four feet ( human feet , not foot as a measuring unit ) . Anyway , if structure is good , it is possible to do all thous structure "tests" standing on one leg . Addiction of the knees is important but it is just one of the "structure " \ absorption methods , knees\feet can be parallel without adduction and still be equally efficient if the upper body structure is correct ( there are also different ways of skeletal alignment ) . Different styles use different basic structure \stance and they have their reason for that , personally I teach adducted knees stance to the beginners because it is easy to "feel" and understand how that whole concept works , after a while , as the training progress and structure is better , people naturally stop to adduct the knees and take the stance which is more comfortable for them and that is totally ok because they are able to control the force and maintain the structure . I've also started with adducted knees stance and later that changed .Now , why such things are taught , simply because every training must start from somewhere and for the beginner is important to learn and understand basic concepts of the style he is practicing . Precise position of the body helps student to learn and develop necessary skills quickly and it is not good to teach too many things at the beginning because too much information on same subject ( like teaching several different structure methods) can cause confusion and slow down the training significantly.In short , purpose of YJKYM is to teach a student basic concepts of dealing with incoming force and to control his body as well as how to control his opponent's body when contact is established . Once learned , a need for precise position of the basic stance stops and can take a free form

[anerlich]

Slowly pushing or pressing bares little semblance to what it will be like in high stress situations / real life. etc.

Perhaps this is true of pure striking, but sustained slow pressure is definitely part of a grappling situation.

Other than solo stance work, breathing, forms, etc. and trying to "sink" I do not specifically train to develop a strong root. I learn and practice the necessary skills through chi sao and standup wrestling. I'll practice balance while riding the train as well.

I agree (I think) with zuti in saying that developing rooting skills in a static position doesn't necessarily translate to applying and absorbing force in a dynamic situation. Also, I don't believe the YGKYM stance is very effective stance from which to apply or receive force. I will just about always work from a 50/50 front stance. My instructor changed the way we do forms to replace the YGKYM with front stances in a many places. This was from much observation of WC guys in ring fights - those that fought from a parallel stance almost always either

i) dropped a foot back and went onto a front stance when pressure was applied;
ii) got quickly forced back into the ropes.

You can make a parallel or sideways parallel stance work BEFORE pressure is applied, and some like this because you can quickly lead with either side, plus you are less susceptible to single leg takedowns or leg kicks (though arguably more susceptible to double leg attacks). Once the pressure is on, though, you need to change stance. IMO. YMMV.

[LFJ]

One more thing , people invented different kind of stances because natural stance and weight distribution are not the best solutions for fighting

Mushashi apparently disagreed.