Is mentioning your previous style a liability when trying to learn a new art?

[LaterthanNever]

Hello,

I was turned down a few years ago when approaching a Master of a lesser taught kung fu style in NYC. I was asked by a senior student of his(who taught the class for the first 30 minutes) if I had studied any other styles in the past. I only answered *because I was asked*. I mentioned that I had done WC(1 year), Ba Bu tang lang(8 step) for 4 years, and trained w/ the late Jesse Glover(Bruces' first student) for a little under 2 years.

I thanked the student and the Master for allowing me to observe the class. I was polite, did not interrupt class, bowed to the Master and thanked him for his time. I also expressed that I had wanted to learn this unique and rare style for quite some time and I would be honored to be accepted as his student. His senior student told me that I would have to fill out an application online to be considered. Needless to say..I contacted them by e-mail as I was told and at least expected to be given a reply with a link to fill out a form to apply.

Anyway, I got a reply about a week later saying "We are unable to accept your application". ?????

Um.. *what* application? They didn't even allow me to apply and then look at it and say "Naaah..not a good match".

Has it been anyones' experience that mentioned what arts one has studied before to be a liability when wanting to learn something new? Is Bruce that much of a polarizing figure that the mere mention of him(or anyone in his innner circle from back in the day) comes across as an automatic bar to learning something else?

Perhaps there are styles which have a rivalry which I am unaware of? I know for instance..WC and CLF have been "enemies" and some who are very traditional would refuse to teach a new student if that student had any past experience with the "rival/nemesis" art.

I could see if I was loud and boisterous and rude to this teacher or his students but I was not.

May I please have some objective input here? Thank you.

Good wishes,
LTN

[mickey]

Greetings,

LTN, if you are serious, wait a week and apply again. They might be testing your seriousness. And if you get a rejection, keep trying. The vibe you may be giving off is that you are looking for experience and are not really ready to commit to learn something deeply. The real stuff is not offered easily.

When it comes to how people respond towards people with previous experience, it is pretty much to each his own. I do not know how you presented yourself but, in NYC, it is a good thing to be very humble about it and not present it as medals of achievement. That is a real turn off (not accusing you).

A long time ago, I knew of someone who could simply tell what a person studied by the way the person moved and used that person's previous understanding to help branch the person into what he was teaching. People like that are far and few between. So, remember the aforementioned advice.

mickey

[Jimbo]

Hi. Some thoughts...

What if any impression did you feel when you spoke to them? Meaning, did you sense any arrogance or subtle hostility towards you on their part?

Is it possible the e-mailed rejection you received was some mistake on their end?

It's possible that a style or styles you mentioned could have been a deciding factor. Or perhaps he/they felt that you 'style jump' and wouldn't stick with it if they accepted you.

I taught CLF for several years, and one type of prospective student I would NOT accept is the type that says, "I'll work harder and get better than your other students" before they've even started. Because besides being arrogant, that type is ALWAYS the exact opposite of what they promise, and in my experience, they tend to lack basic intelligence as well as integrity. I made the mistake of accepting this type of student once, and after a couple(?) of months I kicked him out.

I've studied under many MA teachers of various systems and have never been refused acceptance. All were aware of my previous experience. If that school rejected you because of a specific style you studied before, that's a bit unusual, IMO. There are even some high-level MAists out there who train both CLF and WC with no issues.

*Edit to add:
I just saw mickey's post, and there is some good advice there.

[rett2]

You seem like a decent person and to be honest they sound like jerks. IMO you're lucky not to have gotten sucked in only to find out you've been wasting your time with an authoritarian semi-cult 10 years later.

See it as you interviewed them and they weren't good enough for you. It's probably true. Don't buy into any mind games like they're "testing your resolve" by being jerks. That's cult nonsense, first step in brainwashing.

Also, this probably doesn't apply to you, but just in case: don't fetishize "rare super-traditional" styles or "the real stuff". In fact, just ignore any talk of how amazingly traditional and special any style is. That's all just clever marketing. If it's good you'll find out because it will actually be good. You're probably not missing out on anything you can't find somewhere else where they treat people with common courtesy.

That said, mickey’s advice might be better. But I wanted to write how I see it. Edit: just saw Jimbo's post: he could be right too. They both are way more experienced than I am.

[David Jamieson]

Hello,

I was turned down a few years ago when approaching a Master of a lesser taught kung fu style in NYC. I was asked by a senior student of his(who taught the class for the first 30 minutes) if I had studied any other styles in the past. I only answered *because I was asked*. I mentioned that I had done WC(1 year), Ba Bu tang lang(8 step) for 4 years, and trained w/ the late Jesse Glover(Bruces' first student) for a little under 2 years.

I thanked the student and the Master for allowing me to observe the class. I was polite, did not interrupt class, bowed to the Master and thanked him for his time. I also expressed that I had wanted to learn this unique and rare style for quite some time and I would be honored to be accepted as his student. His senior student told me that I would have to fill out an application online to be considered. Needless to say..I contacted them by e-mail as I was told and at least expected to be given a reply with a link to fill out a form to apply.

Anyway, I got a reply about a week later saying "We are unable to accept your application". ?????

Um.. *what* application? They didn't even allow me to apply and then look at it and say "Naaah..not a good match".

Has it been anyones' experience that mentioned what arts one has studied before to be a liability when wanting to learn something new? Is Bruce that much of a polarizing figure that the mere mention of him(or anyone in his innner circle from back in the day) comes across as an automatic bar to learning something else?

Perhaps there are styles which have a rivalry which I am unaware of? I know for instance..WC and CLF have been "enemies" and some who are very traditional would refuse to teach a new student if that student had any past experience with the "rival/nemesis" art.

I could see if I was loud and boisterous and rude to this teacher or his students but I was not.

May I please have some objective input here? Thank you.

Good wishes,
LTN

weird. You would think they'd like the moeny and another student.
maybe they don't have the front gate / back room set up?

Front gate, anyone willing to show up an pay a fee can get that.
Back room, only trusted students get that.

I personally think that this is the traditional way of doing things.

Though none of these constructs fit into a western consumer model it has everything to do with style bearing.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I think all of the viewpoints expressed so far are good ones.


mickey

[LaterthanNever]

Thank you one and all for your thoughtful input.

Mikey: I do not know how you presented yourself but, in NYC, it is a good thing to be very humble about it and not present it as medals of achievement."

Yes, of course. As I had mentioned in my initial post..I only answered the young man because I was asked. I did *not* say "Oh well..I mean hey..I *AM* almost ready to take my sifu test you know(in 8 step mantis)..I'll bet almost no one comes here w/ that level of starting knowledge..TOP THAT!!"..or other such puffery.

Jimbo: regarding style hopping? That's valid. In the case of the WC I studied..the gentleman who I learned from had some immigration issues w/ his Visa and moved back to China. In Ba Bu Tang Lang..my sifus wife gave birth and so he had to take a break from teaching to raise his daughter. In the interim..I studied w/ Si Jo Glover and then he passed away.

Soooo..I guess(at least I'd *hope*) those are legit reasons for not continuing an art.

Thank you again gentleman...

[SteveLau]

LTN,

It could be your training history be a liability or not. That we will never be certain. And it is not worth to find out. Why? Here is my analysis:

- The school operator regards your training history be a liability. That is inter-school of style politics. Or if he regards your previous trained styles are technically incompatible to what he is teaching. Well, then you should forget it and moves on. It is not worth to debate with the school operator no matter you agree with his view.

- The school operator does not like attitude. May be its personal or he regards you as a school hopper - you do not stick to one school of style for long. According to your training history, it does not seem so.


At the end of the day, be an honest fellow. It is no good to hide or lie your training history to prospective school operator. So whether your training history is a liability or not, be frank.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[LaterthanNever]

Jimbo:

I forgot to comment on this: When you stated: "I'll work harder and get better than your other students" before they've even started. "

I did not say this to him. What I *did* say was "if I am fortunate enough to be accepted as a student, I promise to work hard"..I did not add the "I'll get better than..."

I guess comments are always relative in terms of how they are perceived. But I don't think that pledging to work hard is considered effrontery.

"I'll get better than everyone else" though? Yep, that's pretty smug. We've all seen the student who bites of more than he/she can chew and before you know it..it's only a short hop, skip and a jump before one hears "And before you know it..I'll be better than you!!(the school instructor). Oy!!

Sifu Lau,

"Or if he regards your previous trained styles are technically incompatible to what he is teaching."

Yes. Initially, I thought that too! Though I do my best to approach anything new as an "empty cup" as far as..ok, yes..I acknowledge I've studied some other arts..but I "hang my ego at the door" so to speak and approach anything new as a "empty mind/vessel"

Or if he regards your previous trained styles are technically incompatible to what he is teaching. Well, then you should forget it and moves on. It is not worth to debate with the school operator no matter you agree with his view.

Well, then you should forget it and moves on. It is not worth to debate with the school operator no matter you agree with his view."

Certainly. I did not approach him again. Nor will I. Rather, my post was more to get some feedback..more to see if anyone in my shoes has experienced. I see you teach in HK. Would having experience in previous arts, cause the same type of scenario as I described? Or to put it another way..are "politics"(I hate that word) even more prevalent in HK/China?

I would hope not. I guess in that regard..I am idealist. There was an excellent youtube documentary about Hung Kuen and Grandmaster Chun Fai Lam mentions how his father the late GGM Lum Jo stated to "observe all masters" of other styles as they walked up the steep hill in the morning on their way to train in HG.

Again..thank you all for your willingness to listen and input.

Blessings,
LTN

[Jimbo]

Jimbo:

I forgot to comment on this: When you stated: "I'll work harder and get better than your other students" before they've even started. "

I did not say this to him. What I *did* say was "if I am fortunate enough to be accepted as a student, I promise to work hard"..I did not add the "I'll get better than..."

I guess comments are always relative in terms of how they are perceived. But I don't think that pledging to work hard is considered effrontery.

"I'll get better than everyone else" though? Yep, that's pretty smug. We've all seen the student who bites of more than he/she can chew and before you know it..it's only a short hop, skip and a jump before one hears "And before you know it..I'll be better than you!!(the school instructor). Oy!!

LTN:

Yes, I should have clarified that I wasn't saying you were implying that, only that in my years in MA, both as a student and when I used to teach, I've seen many people who said exactly that, and *every time* those people completely failed to live up to their claims. And those are among the only types that I, as a teacher, would refuse right off the bat. I only accepted the student I mentioned above because he claimed to have had 15 years in Muay Thai, was 36 years old at the time, and I thought that he *might* provide some good experience for my students and me. Most grandiose people like that tend to be younger guys, so I thought he might be able to walk his talk. I was wrong. The guy looked in good shape, but he couldn't keep up with my students; he seemed imtimidated by how hard we/they trained; he always said, "In Muay Thai, we do it this way"; he was lazy and made all kinds of excuses; and was weird about paying his dues.

IME, most of the teachers I trained under welcomed the fact that I had previous training. A couple of them didn't care either way.

I also agree that you did NOT seem like a "style-jumper". Sometimes life happens. Lord knows I've studied many different styles, not to "take a little here, take a little there," but to gain experiences. But I always had a 'base' style. Sometimes a specific school or style ends up being (or becoming) incompatible with the direction you want to go. When you find "the" style that really fits you physically and mentally, it's a bit like finding a good wife.

You seemed like you had the correct attitude going in. Perhaps you can look at it this way: If they chose to judge you in a way that truly was unfair, then they're the ones who missed out. You may potentially have become a very good student. And a good student can be as hard or harder to find than a good teacher.

[LaterthanNever]

Jimbo,

Good point. And I bear no ill will towards the instructor. I sent you a PM btw..

[Orion Paximus]

A few years back, I was in Seattle and wanted to pay a visit to John Leong's school. He was gracious at first, met me at the door, I told him I was just visiting and would like to watch one of his classes (one was about to start). He asked me if I trained and I said yes, then he said I couldn't stay. It makes me laugh now, like I dunno I guess he thought I was there to steal secrets or something.