TCMA Survival

[-N-]

Having a school is completely different than teaching someone personally.

Having a successful school is also different than TCMA survival.

You are in the people business when you open a school. I read somewhere that "people don't really care what you know until they know you care."

This is a kind of western culture thing.

I also agree with MightyB that making a living teaching kids suuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks! Only adults can understand the amount of effort required in the regular practice of the cma. Therefore, the survival is based on how many adults we can inspirer to commit to the learning and practice.

Making a living doing kiddie daycare sucks. Truly teaching the real thing to kids can be much more rewarding than teaching adults.

The kids I've taught are still better than any of the adults that have ever joined. And some of the adults joined because they wanted to be able to do what they saw the kids doing.

The kids were disciplined, attentive, and did as they were told during 4 hour workouts. This wasn't kung fu daycare, and I didn't make any money from it. But those kids do more for survival of real TCMA than any of the others.

This summer, one of the former kids came back to train during break after graduating from Air Force Academy. The last time he trained with me was about 8 years ago. We did 8+ hours a day of one on one for 3 days before he had to leave again. By the time he left, he was doing better than any of the current adult students who had been training for a few years. All of his muscles were sore though.

So, back to the question, "how does the TCMA survive for future generations to learn?" It MUST BE TAUGHT. Doesn't matter if it is in the park, a basement, a garage, or a location. Of course a location will require the most work.

Yes, taught. But be careful if you find yourself compromising to be a commercial success.

Then it becomes survival of the business more than survival of TCMA.

[Surf-Rider]

Yes, these are some very solid points.

When I talk about kids I am referring to very young kids. I've had very little success teaching 4-7 years until adult hood. Some that make it may start around 8. I find 10 and up to be better and early teens to be the best. I do not look at young teens as kids (I know they are) but as young adults and therefore treat them like that. At least this is from my experience, maybe others are better teaching the very young and keeping them into adult hood. I think that is a skill on it's own.

I will agree, my teens will train circles around my adults and the adults wish they could do half of what the teens do but the problem I see is that the teens need to grow up, graduate, get married and have a life. Ok, maybe one or two might come back but most don't. They go on with their lives and never think of spreading what they learned. How is this going to help the survival of TCMA?

[-N-]

Yes, these are some very solid points.

When I talk about kids I am referring to very young kids. I've had very little success teaching 4-7 years until adult hood. Some that make it may start around 8. I find 10 and up to be better and early teens to be the best. I do not look at young teens as kids (I know they are) but as young adults and therefore treat them like that. At least this is from my experience, maybe others are better teaching the very young and keeping them into adult hood. I think that is a skill on it's own.

I will agree, my teens will train circles around my adults and the adults wish they could do half of what the teens do but the problem I see is that the teens need to grow up, graduate, get married and have a life. Ok, maybe one or two might come back but most don't. They go on with their lives and never think of spreading what they learned. How is this going to help the survival of TCMA?

The ones I'm referring to started at age 4 and continued into their teens.

[Surf-Rider]

That's cool.
I find that to be very rare.
Of all the kids you started at 4 how many made it to keep training pass their teens into their 20's and eventually started teaching and spreading the art?

[Jimbo]

I'm willing to bet that out of any 100 students under any given teacher (who has many students, kids or adults), probably less than 5 or 6 will go on to become lifelong practitioners. And even fewer will teach and pass on their knowledge.

TBH, I used to fret about the need to spread kung fu. Years ago, I settled for the fact that those arts that are meant to survive will do so, with or without my worrying about it. If not here, then somewhere else. Most people take up kung fu as a hobby, cultural interest, or for self-defense, not as a gateway to a second (or third) job. Spreading the art isn't some duty of a practitioner, it's for those who feel a calling to share it with others who might also be passionate about it. And they're very fortunate indeed if they can find good students with whom to share their art. And if any of them become good enough and choose to become teachers, then that is a bonus. But really teaching kung fu is a lot of hard work and a big responsibility, and not a decision to be taken lightly, IMO. Which is why I personally chose to leave the duty of teaching to others.

[-N-]

That's cool.
I find that to be very rare.
Of all the kids you started at 4 how many made it to keep training pass their teens into their 20's and eventually started teaching and spreading the art?

I'm willing to bet that out of any 100 students under any given teacher (who has many students, kids or adults), probably less than 5 or 6 will go on to become lifelong practitioners. And even fewer will teach and pass on their knowledge.

3 of them are in their 20's now, and starting careers and families. If any of them tried to make a profession out of teaching TCMA, I'd have to go beat some sense into them.

When they were with me, they did teach specific skills to adults while under my supervision. I would have no problem with them teaching certain key fundamentals at this point, whereas I can't say the same for any of the other students.

At some point they likely will find time to return to their physical training and even teach a little.

TCMA is wholistic and more than just physical skill. I still interact with them, and I see them applying martial spirit and attitude in everything they do. They teach this either explicitly or by example. I'm happy with this because it all starts and ends with attitude and spirit. None of them will be the weak men of Asia. They know to defeat their opponents physically and to crush them spiritually. And they will be smart enough not to have to do that.

My grand-teacher taught(and yelled at and beat with a stick) 6000 students during his career, and was known as The Mantis King. He authorized something like 23 students to teach. That is less than half of 1% of his students. That was the expectation for the quality level for the system to survive. Even among those authorized, it's clear that there were different levels of understanding.

My teacher authorized a few of us to teach. And even within our group, not all were authorized due to ability and understanding.

One of our ancestors was concerned in his old age about having nobody to carry on the system. He watched the county leitai matches and went up to the champion when it was all over. He told him that he was good, but but not good enough that he should have won. That insult led to a fight where he defeated the champion, who then asked to be his student.

Over the years, we have had at least six instructors come to learn with us. I would not consider any of them at a level to propagate the quality we expect.

It's not about how many students, whether 6000 or just 1. It's about the quality to keep real TCMA alive.

[Surf-Rider]

I'm willing to bet that out of any 100 students under any given teacher (who has many students, kids or adults), probably less than 5 or 6 will go on to become lifelong practitioners. And even fewer will teach and pass on their knowledge.

This reminds me of my first teacher that said "if you get 1 student out of 100 to make this a lifelong pursuit to one day sharing the art, then you did a great job."
I guess I always held on to this and figured if I wanted 10 good students to carry on then I need to teach 1000 to find the 10. Unfortunately, that is exhausting!

But really teaching kung fu is a lot of hard work and a big responsibility, and not a decision to be taken lightly

I totally agree 100%
I always looked at becoming a teacher like getting married and having children. Your commitment is to the art as you would to your wife and you need to put the best interest of the students first as you would your children, for they are the future. It seems these days that most students don't appreciate the amount of time and effort it takes and the few that do, well life always seems to get in the way to end their practice. I understand why many have chose to stop teaching, but I can't help but wonder if there is a better way.

[SevenStar]

Only adults can understand the amount of effort required in the regular practice of the cma. Therefore, the survival is based on how many adults we can inspirer to commit to the learning and practice.

That's not true. All kids are sponges. they understand what they see and are taught. You teach them to train regularly, you teach them that they are to train hard, they understand. What adults don't understand, is how a kid works. young kids have a short attention span. a kid is not going to focus for an entire 2 hour class. He will focus for a good thirty minutes.

I think that many people try MMA or BJJ because they think it is something they can learn and use immediately, unlike the traditional arts that take a long time. I believe that MMA and BJJ is starting to slowly lose it's momentum. People are starting to realize that to gain any real skills requires hard work, time and effort, regardless of style.

living in an MMA city, I don't see any decrease in momentum. I still see a bjj class with 30 plus people per session. I see thai boxing classes with 15 - 20 people per session. I see people on their own on the bags and also see full judo classes. Why? Because people enjoy it. Most people don't start and continue with martial arts because they want to learn how to defend themselves. Not in 2016. they either want to compete, they want an alternative method of staying in shape or just something different and fun to do. with both of those categories, they know the results don't come quickly, however, they come faster than they would with TMA, the way it is typically taught. Don't get me wrong, some people are still interested in self defense, but I can tell you that's not the reason 85 - 90% of prospects walk into an mma gym.

[Jimbo]

I also live in an MMA/BJJ mecca, and I do not notice any signs of it slowing down. If anything, it's become part of the mainstream. In my district of the city alone, there's maybe a half-dozen MMA gyms, at least two of which name UFC/MMA fighters train at. In the past, up until the early 2Ks, in terms of MA this was mostly a Kenpo town, with a good smattering of TKD/TSD. Those were the dominant MAs. Now you barely hear a peep out of them. The entire MA landscape has changed, and I don't see things going back to the way it was.

That said, I will say that, IME and observation, for a kid to be a sponge for MA, he/she must be interested. As a teacher, you can only encourage and nurture that interest. If the kid is there because mom or dad put them there, and they hate it or aren't interested or motivated, they will not/cannot absorb much of anything. Also, just like adults, kids are individuals. They aren't superhuman. Like any adult, a kid must have some degree of natural inclination for the art they are practicing. There must be some physical/mental compatibility or it won't happen.

Even though I only taught adults in my own classes, earlier in life I assistant instructed for several years for two different teachers, and had experience teaching kids, both small and in their teens. Most were very enthusiastic; you must keep things fast-paced, especially for the younger ones. I handled it well enough, but I never really enjoyed teaching the little kids. I guess I'm not a "kid" person, which is OK because we're all different.

As for adults being outdone by the kids, that all depends. I've taught adults who either came with considerable previous MA experience, or who were 'naturals' who also trained very seriously, progressed rapidly, and could have probably ran circles around a lot of the kids I'd previously taught. They were self-motivated to be there, and were already into their careers. Admittedly, most of these were in their mid-late 20s. Of course, occasionally you'd also get the 'know-it-alls' who won't follow instructions because it's not the way they were used to doing things in their other art, and these types always made excuses. Those types were dismissed before too long.

[MightyB]

I think one of the issues we as a community have to address is how we demonstrate TCMA. The majority of TCMA, if you search on youtube, is forms. That's just not going to cut it anymore. It doesn't excite people, and we're asking too much of the audience in their ability to decipher what they're seeing.

Now look at this video for a traditional Filipino martial art https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzBb...zZkwNTEyMjAxNg
The casual observer understands immediately.

Someone IMO who's been doing a great job portraying TCMA in the media is the UK's Master Wong.
Here's a new video he just put out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uwmcVBsR_o
Again
the casual observer understands this video immediately.

Contrasts those videos to any of the numerous TCMA forms videos that are online. Or think about the demonstrations we put on at events. Person after person doing solo forms that to a casual observer look a little whacky.

[Jimbo]

I agree 100%, MightyB.

It's the way the arts are presented. I do agree there is way too much over-emphasis on the forms aspect in TCMA, especially in demos. I've been guilty of it in the past before, because that's the way public demos were usually done.

A big pet peeve of mine is MA applications videos (whether TCMA or others) in which the instructor drones on and on and on and on about every tiny detail while his 'dummy'/partner moves in slow motion then stands mostly stationery. Sometimes going on for 20 minutes or more before actually showing anything. As opposed to just showing it in action and keeping the pace up, and then explaining some details, like in that excellent Master Wong vid. Because in actual usage, those teeny, tiny little details shown with a stationery man will make no appreciable difference. They only make a difference in detail-driven demonstrations to make the demonstrator appear like more of an expert.

[MightyB]

that's the way public demos were usually done.

Now I'm not saying that instructors give up on doing public forms, but they should think about the audience. If it's an educated (in MA) audience, then forms are fine because they'll understand. But, if it's a general audience, then think about wowing them. "Wowing" can be forms - but choose flashier forms and forms with cool weapons. Also - remember a little goes a long way, so focus on quality, not quantity. Lion dances are sweet, and loud which generates excitement. Always make sure there's a segment with techniques in action - and not noticeably too cooperative between the attacker and the defender. The idea should be to create excitement.

[MightyB]

A big pet peeve of mine is MA applications videos (whether TCMA or others) in which the instructor drones on and on and on and on about every tiny detail while his 'dummy'/partner moves in slow motion then stands mostly stationery. Sometimes going on for 20 minutes or more before actually showing anything.

Agreed - I hate that. It's like, just shut up and do it already.
Word to everyone making vids - Show with action and keep the vids short.

[Jimbo]

Now I'm not saying that instructors give up on doing public forms, but they should think about the audience. If it's an educated (in MA) audience, then forms are fine because they'll understand. But, if it's a general audience, then think about wowing them. "Wowing" can be forms - but choose flashier forms and forms with cool weapons. Also - remember a little goes a long way, so focus on quality, not quantity. Lion dances are sweet, and loud which generates excitement. Always make sure there's a segment with techniques in action - and not noticeably too cooperative between the attacker and the defender. The idea should be to create excitement.

One thing my CLF sifu incorporated into demos was 2-man fighting applications, first done at full-bore, then once again at half-speed, to show what we were actually doing. But not lingering on any one thing. These were done rapid-fire, with multiple pairs on stage, going from one pair to the next. IMO, this probably did a lot more to interest people in general than the forms. Other traditional kung fu people might be able to appreciate a well-done form, but to most it just looks like punching/kicking and swishing weapons into the air.

[bawang]

trying to revive American kung fu is like trying to revive any other obscure old fad hobby. just imagine trying to revive hippy culture or nerd tabletop dice game.