Ninjutsu

[Mr T]

Can anyone give me some info on the MA, or recomend a website?....NIT ashida kim! :D

[Budokan]

e-budo.com has forums devoted to this, but they've been down recently...

K. Mark Hoover

[IronFist]

Read "Ninjutsu: History and Tradition" by Masaaki Hatsumi.

Iron

[Kung Lek]

the martial art favoured by the ninja that still exists today is called ninpo.

ninjutsu in itself is a conglamoration of different things ranging from a variety of martial arts to ways of deception and stealth and obscure methods of assasination.

the ninja basically disappeared with the samurai class (excuse the pun). And the whole idea was revived for the sake of the almighty dollar.

most of what's aroung today is borrowed form other arts and given new names. Heck, I've even seen "Ninja Iron Body" as a book. I don't even think they bothered to change the name from Nei Gong in that book. yeesh, do they have no shame? hahahahahaha.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links

[IronFist]

The "Ninja" name was cashed in on in the 80's. Everyone on every block was adding "ninja" to the title of their MA school to attract customers. Why? Because ninjas were cool!

This lead to a whole slew of fakes and frauds. Can you say Ashida Kim? What about Frank Dux? Ronald Duncan? These guys make money off people who don't know any better.

Iron

[I Hate Ashida Kim]

I assume this is on topic enough for me to not get flamed.

I think I may have explain this here before once, but I'll say it again in case I'm thinking of another forum.

Ashida Kim, Ronald Duncan, and others all claim to be "Koga." Read on:

In the 60's, the last remaining Koga grand master, Fujita, died in a car accident with his top 2 or 3 students. He did not leave an heir, he did not really train anyone else. For the most part, Koga ryu ninjutsu died on that day.

Apparently, people like Ashida Kim heard of this and decided to claim Koga lineage for themselves. After all, who could challenge them if there were no Koga?

Now, Ashida will tell you that he is Koga, but he won't give you the name of his teacher. Well, actually he'll say "Shendai" who is some code name for his teacher because hs real name is a secret, and also he'll say Counte Dante, who used to advertise on the back of comic books in the 70's. Now, chances are "Shendai" does not exist, and Counte Dante was definately NOT a ninja.

Ashida has also said to me, on one occasion (on his message board, but the message has subsequently been erased. I may have a saved copy of it somewhere), that (this is paraphrased), "if one person learns one technique in an art, he is able to say that he teaches that art."

That's crap if I ever heard it. That means if I learn a Taekwondo kick, I am fully able to legitimately say that "I teach Taekwondo." This quote is indicitave of Ashida's intelligence.

Additionally, Ashida cannot "prove" his Koga lineage in any way. He will not divulge the names of any documented Koga teachers he has studied with (because they are all "secret). I beleve he claims to have scrolls of Koga, but he won't show them to any one.

Take Hatsumi, on the other hand. He has Togakure scrolls. Japan's government recognizes him as a legit ninjutsu grandmaster. Which one sounds more legit to you?

Perhaps Ashida's most fatal mistake was in the chosing of his pen name. As you may know, Ashida is a Japanese name and Kim is a Korean last name. Ashida Kim is caucasion, no less. When asked about this, he says "there are many males named Kim." That doesn't even answer the question! So, in Christopher Hunter (that's his real name)'s haste to choose an Asian sounding alias (and therefore sell more books by appearing more legit), he messed up.

To top it all off, all of the so called "koga" masters seem to back each other up. Ashida says Dux is legit, who says Ronald Duncan is legit, who says Tew is legit, who says Hoshino is legit, and the list goes on. One can only assume it is to protect the veil of fraud. After all, if Ashida were to say "Ronald Duncan the Koga ninjutsu guy is a fraud! There is no Koga!" that wouldn't make him look very good either, as he claims to teach Koga as well.

So in conclusion, books by Hatsumi and Hayes (one of his students) are good.

IHAK

"If Ashida wished you to know his real name, I am sure he would write to you and tell you himself." --Danny Sainty

"So, you supposed martial artists, what are you trining for? Who are you training to fight? Apparently no one. Because even in a hypothetical situation, you puss out, Ha! Ha!" --Ashida Kim

[Budokan]

You can pile on Ashida all you want, but ya better lay off Count Dante! He was just too cool for words. I mean, anybody who appeared in the classified ads of a comic book has to have something going for him, right? ;)

K. Mark Hoover

[Mr T]

So what do u guys think about the art itself? i mean is it legit or are there just to many frauds and would it help me in real life situations or would i be wasting my time training in it?

[Budokan]

Personally, I think there is an extremely high noise-to-signal ratio when it comes to this art; you're going to have to look long and hard to find someone legitimate to teach it, IMO. But if you succeed it should be fun.

K. Mark Hoover

[zen_celt]

http://shell.world-net.co.nz/~jimgould/


You can also check out books by Hatsumi, and Hayes, There are a few other sites out there as well. I have heard that there are still some Ninjutsu schools that have not come forward to reveal themselves, the Katori Shinto Ryu, for example, has only recently come forward(I got that From D. Craig's Jiu-Jitsu book). But Hatsumi is a good place to start. Just remember to be very discriminating about anyone and anything claiming to be ninja since it is commonly used to make a person's school seem better/ get more money.
Good luck.
-Z

"The thorn *****s only those who would harm the rose."

[IronFist]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zen_celt:
I have heard that there are still some Ninjutsu schools that have not come forward to reveal themselves, the Katori Shinto Ryu, for example, has only recently come forward
[/quote]

Be EXTREMELY careful of schools claiming to be "just coming foreward" now. Ashida Kim "just came forward" in the early 80's.

Good luck though, ninjutsu is cool.

Iron

"Now why the **** would you censor "d.ork?"

Ironman PostLog: 1100 - 11/20/01

[Rolling Elbow]

That ninjutsu no longer exists?

Kung Lek....ninjutsu doesn't really exist? then what do I study? authentic Bujinkan Taijutsu.., headed by Hatsumi and very much true to the essence of the nine schools that comprise it.I'm no assassin, but I certainly learn all ranges of unarmed combat and weaponry.

There are ninjutsu components to some traditional samurai jujutsu schools yes, but none taught as an entire system. The Bujinkan remains the ultimate source of information on the subject.

Read Hatsumi's books, don't really bother with Hayes.

P.S- It is very legitimate..provided you have the right instructor.

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[Kung Lek]

hey there rolling elbow, did you actually read what I posted or are you going off emotionally?

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links

[Radhnoti]

Kung Lek said: "the ninja basically disappeared with the samurai class (excuse the pun). And the whole idea was revived for the sake of the almighty dollar."

I have no idea how he could have misinterpreted your perfectly innocent statement, Kung Lek.

:rolleyes: :D

Ok, ok, that might have been out of context...but I'm betting that was the part he took exception with.

[zen_celt]

You're right, people need to be extremely discriminating when it comes to researching ninjutsu. The reason I used the Katori Shinto Ryu in my post was to highlight the fact that we know little about the ninja as a whole. I know next to nothing about this school but as it was used in D. Craig's jujitsu book, I figured it couldn't be that bad. The fact is, that which we call ninjutsu was created out of a clan's need to survive against the military might of warring daimyos. Since their focus was on survival and not fame, I'm willing to bet that there are styles of ninjutsu still unknown to the general public. After all, I'm sure there are secrets and sects within the ninja history that even Hatsumi Soke will not discuss in public and may not even be aware of. The whole ninja legend has been built on mystery and misinformation. It is this fact that allows fakers like Kim to exist. There are probably styles and groups of fighting systems still unknown the world over but the reason the ninja are a used so much for selling a school is because they are high up in media consciousness and people like the legend behind them. Either way, a person looking for instruction in MA in general, and ninjutsu in particular, needs to be highly discriminating and critical when seeking a school.
-Z

"The thorn *****s only those who would harm the rose."