Which is the original Shaolin and the original Wudang

[RITTERKING1]

What is your opinion about this?

Many people search the original Shaolin and the original Wudang forms but what is original? There are many forms trained today in Shaolin that were brought from other places of Henan and China because they were related to Shaolin. As a lost Shaolin knowledge. Other new forms were created. Wushu was included in many forms to look great for the tourists. Is that original?

Today not but in 50 or 100 years that will be original because all this is today the official curriculum practised around the Shaolin temple by many martial art schools.

When you say original what do you mean? The forms practised around the shaolin temple aroynd 1900? Practised in 1800 or older?

The curriculum always changed. New forms were imported from other places and masters and included in the shaolin curriculum.

There is another problem. Many forms changed names. For example for a period all forms practised by shaolin monks were called Luohan forms. Other forms like pao quan were called just shaolin quan. The tai zu chang quan was called Dahong quan.

And now to wudang. The two original lineages there are the Sanfeng pai and the Xuanwu pai. The Sanfeng has included in their curriculum many other taoist styles (they call it lost wudang knowledge) from northern China taoist temples and the Xuanwu taoist styles from southern China. And so the one branch is called Northern wudang style and the other Southern wudang style.

We have also the movies. I believe that if we look at the first main China shaolin and wudang movies that we will see some original forms. Before shooting the movies at this time, the film crews researched from the existing masters to have a form showed in the movie. I believe that Jet lis Shaolin temple and an old wudang movie from 1980 called wudang the oldest movies are. In shaolin temple you can see many weapon forms and a chuo jiao shaolin form. In the wudang movie techniques similar to xing yi.

And now iam coming again back to my question but more specific. Which shaolin forms were the major forms practised in Shaolin before 1980 and which one in Wudang? Practised by the most persons.The backbone of each system. In hung gar we have the four pillar forms. In wing chun only 3 forms. Which 3 forms are the pillars of shaolin and wudang before 1980?

The monks had to live. They couldnt practise kung fu all the day long like now 4 times a day. They had to pray, to clean, to sweep, to work at the fields, to carry. They dont had time for kung fu practise. They could practised in their daily works kung fu together. Sweeping with staf techniques or in the kitchen splitting wood with iron palm qigong. But for shaolin and wudang kung fu practise they had maybe only one day and not the hole day. In this few times that they practised forms, they could only learned a few forms. Which could this forms be?

In wudang we can find in books before 1980 the Taiyi Wuxing quan form. But which jian form was practised there? In shaolin in many villages the common form is Xiao Hong quan. In Chen village they practise Chen taichi but the forms name is pao chui. Chen practised shaolin curriculum. Also Xiao Hong quan and Pao Chui are the original shaolin forms before 1980 practised and Tai wuxing quan in Wudang?

[RenDaHai]

A tradition like Shaolin is a living organism.

Imagine a great tree, though it continues to grow and change the way it grows is constrained by what has come before and its immediate environment so even 1000 years later one may still be able to recognise it is the same tree. Nothing will be the same and yet its organisation will be familiar.

If however I take a cutting from this tree and plant it elsewhere it will grow into a much more radically different form, though maintain the characteristics of the that species of tree.

This is the same as Shaolin. It has never been an isolated place, rather Shaolin was and is a community of many temples and mountain villages. They all act to constrain each other so that although Kung Fu changes with each hand and each generation the collective forces of its environment keep is Shaolin-like. Where as styles that were once shaolin but moved to another part of China quickly become radically different because they do not have the support structure and communication of this environment.

So shaolin is this living organism, this community of connected clans that practice shaolin and are attached to this place. Although this generation it has suffered immense change these changes are seasonal, like losing leaves in winter, and will not persist. The modern changes have no guiding principle behind them and so there is no glue to maintain them, they will vanish within a generation or two but the ancient forms will maintain. Even now a reversion to more traditional forms is underway here.
-----------------------------
There is no original form, if I take 1000 cups (drinking vessels) you will find no one part that is common to all, rather all are connected by something that is lacking rather than something that is present, that is the space that can contain liquid. So it is in the higher order of organisation of the parts rather than the parts themselves that we come closer to the 'original' cup. The same is true of Shaolin, though there is no original form anyone from Shaolin can recognise the style, even in a form never seen before, becuase of rules of organisation that are best intuitively experienced rather than explained.

Historically there is no original either, even if there were at some remote time an original Shaolin form, the forms of this generation would all be ancestors of it, none would be it. Just like we as humans share a common ancestor with chimps neither us or chimps can be said to be the original form though both come from it.

The classic substyles in this area are Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Tong bei, Jin gang, Luo han, Xin Yi. Each with many, many forms.

Shaolin has always had a profusion of forms. Form is the language of the body, if you go to the trouble of spending a lifetime learning a language then only read one book, wouldn't that be a waste? Forms can be 'read' as well as learned, they needn't all be remembered.

Actually the Shaolin did indeed, for at least the last 400 years, have professional wushu monks who only practiced Kung fu, all day every day. It is written about, they used to pracice 1000 monks all at the same time in coordination according to the Shaolin Staff manual. Shaolin temple acted as a military school for Chinas elite (much like today). It has always been a communiy with the surrounding villages and not an exclusive hard to get to place, rather at a crossroads at the very center of ancient China in the most densely populated place in China.

All that being said Xiao Hong Quan Yi Lu (first path) is the most represented form by far. My master was in his 90's when he taught me the Kung fu he practiced as a boy in Dengfeng in the 1930's. There was rather a lot more content then than there is now.


As far as Wudang I am pretty certain from my time there that Sanfeng and Xuanwu are both modern sects, rather it is the SongXi pai that is the elder.

[Cataphract]

TaiZu Quan was the first "official" form. Before there was Luohan Quan, derived from Luohan Gong and Xin Yi Ba derived from manual labor and more self defense oriented. I think I'm paraphrasing Sal Canzonieri here, but I may be mistaken. If you use "Wudang" synonymous with "internal" it can be traced back to the style of Wang Zhengnan, Zhang Sanfeng being more of a mythological figure. Shaolin was originally known for their staff and respectively Wudang for their sword art.
Chen likely combined several sources, among them Taizu Quan and Qi Jiquang's military techniques with Wudang Daoyin.

[zuti car]

http://penglaimartialarts.blogspot.t...d-reality.html

http://penglaimartialarts.blogspot.t...nd-realty.html

[Xian]

http://penglaimartialarts.blogspot.t...d-reality.html

http://penglaimartialarts.blogspot.t...nd-realty.html

This is a common argument. But I think when you know Daoist people from Daoist sects they are not very open. They never were.
When they tell you something, you can consider they still have something up their sleeve they dont tell you.

Yet I fully agree, Wudang is really known for the Sword, and Shaolin for the Staff


Best regards,
Xian

[RITTERKING1]

Thank you all for your answers!

[Li Tang]

A tradition like Shaolin is a living organism.

Imagine a great tree, though it continues to grow and change the way it grows is constrained by what has come before and its immediate environment so even 1000 years later one may still be able to recognise it is the same tree. Nothing will be the same and yet its organisation will be familiar.

If however I take a cutting from this tree and plant it elsewhere it will grow into a much more radically different form, though maintain the characteristics of the that species of tree.

This is the same as Shaolin. It has never been an isolated place, rather Shaolin was and is a community of many temples and mountain villages. They all act to constrain each other so that although Kung Fu changes with each hand and each generation the collective forces of its environment keep is Shaolin-like. Where as styles that were once shaolin but moved to another part of China quickly become radically different because they do not have the support structure and communication of this environment.

So shaolin is this living organism, this community of connected clans that practice shaolin and are attached to this place. Although this generation it has suffered immense change these changes are seasonal, like losing leaves in winter, and will not persist. The modern changes have no guiding principle behind them and so there is no glue to maintain them, they will vanish within a generation or two but the ancient forms will maintain. Even now a reversion to more traditional forms is underway here.
-----------------------------
There is no original form, if I take 1000 cups (drinking vessels) you will find no one part that is common to all, rather all are connected by something that is lacking rather than something that is present, that is the space that can contain liquid. So it is in the higher order of organisation of the parts rather than the parts themselves that we come closer to the 'original' cup. The same is true of Shaolin, though there is no original form anyone from Shaolin can recognise the style, even in a form never seen before, becuase of rules of organisation that are best intuitively experienced rather than explained.

Historically there is no original either, even if there were at some remote time an original Shaolin form, the forms of this generation would all be ancestors of it, none would be it. Just like we as humans share a common ancestor with chimps neither us or chimps can be said to be the original form though both come from it.

The classic substyles in this area are Hong Quan, Pao Quan, Tong bei, Jin gang, Luo han, Xin Yi. Each with many, many forms.

Shaolin has always had a profusion of forms. Form is the language of the body, if you go to the trouble of spending a lifetime learning a language then only read one book, wouldn't that be a waste? Forms can be 'read' as well as learned, they needn't all be remembered.

Actually the Shaolin did indeed, for at least the last 400 years, have professional wushu monks who only practiced Kung fu, all day every day. It is written about, they used to pracice 1000 monks all at the same time in coordination according to the Shaolin Staff manual. Shaolin temple acted as a military school for Chinas elite (much like today). It has always been a communiy with the surrounding villages and not an exclusive hard to get to place, rather at a crossroads at the very center of ancient China in the most densely populated place in China.

All that being said Xiao Hong Quan Yi Lu (first path) is the most represented form by far. My master was in his 90's when he taught me the Kung fu he practiced as a boy in Dengfeng in the 1930's. There was rather a lot more content then than there is now.


As far as Wudang I am pretty certain from my time there that Sanfeng and Xuanwu are both modern sects, rather it is the SongXi pai that is the elder.

Really well said. Thank you for being here, sharing your knowledge and energy.