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Thread: Traditional Wushu vs Cinematic Wushu

  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    , there was an article about him that mentioned him practicing San Zhan (Japanese: Sanchin, 'three battles'; I studied Mandarin, not Cantonese). The magazine was all in Chinese. Since Goju-ryu karate is very popular in HK, I assumed he had studied that. I had forgotten that some southern CMA styles (Fukien/Fujian styles?) also have 'three battles' sets.
    many southern styles have the set. crane, southern tiger, tai chor, ngo chor, dog boxing, etc. Tai chor preceded crane san zhan, which influenced goju.
    Last edited by SevenStar; 11-03-2016 at 03:05 PM.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

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  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    many southern styles have the set. crane, southern tiger, tai chor, ngo chor, dog boxing, etc. Tai chor preceded crane san zhan, which influenced goju.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    many southern styles have the set. crane, southern tiger, tai chor, ngo chor, dog boxing, etc. Tai chor preceded crane san zhan, which influenced goju.
    the prototype southern kung fu style was a group of mid 1800 navy boxing sets with no name and numbers only, with the set san zhan.

    in 1900s this loose group diverged into many styles. the visits of okinawa students from 1850 to 1900 documents the change and evolution of this group, and when they diverged with okinawa karate. okinawa karate is actually one of the most oldest southern kung fu styles. the visits showed that people who taught okinawa people over 50 years suddenly rearranged this original form in late 1800s early 1900s and created crane, tiger, etc.
    Last edited by bawang; 11-03-2016 at 10:27 PM.

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  4. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    I've seen this before, this is a good example of it. you can see the differences here. other Okinawan styles had a different influence in their sanchin, some came from ngo cho, some southern tiger, etc.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    the prototype southern kung fu style was a group of mid 1800 navy boxing sets with no name and numbers only, with the set san zhan.

    in 1900s this loose group diverged into many styles. the visits of okinawa students from 1850 to 1900 documents the change and evolution of this group, and when they diverged with okinawa karate. okinawa karate is actually one of the most oldest southern kung fu styles. the visits showed that people who taught okinawa people over 50 years suddenly rearranged this original form in late 1800s early 1900s and created crane, tiger, etc.
    Awesome. Never knew that. any links? Maybe my above post was a tad backwards, then. Were the differing san zhan sets perhaps from different sailors and later became associated with the different kung fu styles?
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    Awesome. Never knew that. any links? Maybe my above post was a tad backwards, then. Were the differing san zhan sets perhaps from different sailors and later became associated with the different kung fu styles?
    san zhan is the compromise between realism and body mechanics, its somewhere in between. it shows the basic fighting concept of the style.

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  7. #52
    One concept of that guard ( Sanchin) being, It invites attacks to the center. Open center. Whereas WC prefers you go around.

  8. #53


    I have no idea what this lady is singing about but it is a beautiful song.
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 11-04-2016 at 12:42 PM.

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    One concept of that guard ( Sanchin) being, It invites attacks to the center. Open center. Whereas WC prefers you go around.
    not all of them. The tai cho sanchin I learned covers the center. it does have the arms spreading portion but the thrust covers the center and the three steps forward and backward have the center covered.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    not all of them. The tai cho sanchin I learned covers the center. it does have the arms spreading portion but the thrust covers the center and the three steps forward and backward have the center covered.
    Okinawa karate is older than taizuquan

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  11. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    not all of them. The tai cho sanchin I learned covers the center. it does have the arms spreading portion but the thrust covers the center and the three steps forward and backward have the center covered.
    If you can find a video please post it. Id love to see that version. Here is a version I learned, similar ?

    Im sure more relaxed . This is a rather hard version.

    Another concept. Pigeon toe. Why ? A few reasons I know of.

    That said, That open center guard . Thai's did real well with it. Also you Mantis dudes and Im sure all you dudes. Lots of arm break variations with your mantis hook hands and forearm smash that center draw allows. Motions the same variations abound. Or Arm trap and open side shots galore. Easier to see in the Uechi Ryu version for karate guys. Break structure. Uechi version shows you don't have to stay on line. You can circle to the side. Uechi likely created it to stop his students from staying on line. Avoid head on collisions. Ive always preferred Uechi versions as far as karate is concerned.

  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    the prototype southern kung fu style was a group of mid 1800 navy boxing sets with no name and numbers only, with the set san zhan.

    in 1900s this loose group diverged into many styles. the visits of okinawa students from 1850 to 1900 documents the change and evolution of this group, and when they diverged with okinawa karate. okinawa karate is actually one of the most oldest southern kung fu styles. the visits showed that people who taught okinawa people over 50 years suddenly rearranged this original form in late 1800s early 1900s and created crane, tiger, etc.
    You should write a book !

  13. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    If you can find a video please post it. Id love to see that version. Here is a version I learned, similar ?

    Im sure more relaxed . This is a rather hard version.

    Another concept. Pigeon toe. Why ? A few reasons I know of.

    That said, That open center guard . Thai's did real well with it. Also you Mantis dudes and Im sure all you dudes. Lots of arm break variations with your mantis hook hands and forearm smash that center draw allows. Motions the same variations abound. Or Arm trap and open side shots galore. Easier to see in the Uechi Ryu version for karate guys. Break structure. Uechi version shows you don't have to stay on line. You can circle to the side. Uechi likely created it to stop his students from staying on line. Avoid head on collisions. Ive always preferred Uechi versions as far as karate is concerned.
    Traditional Thai guard is actually more open, as the elbows flare outward. That is done so That incoming round kicks have possibility of connecting with your elbow, damaging the opponent. The elbow down position seen here prevents the elbow from being used as a lever in chin na. The pigeon toed stance is for protection. The southern styles aren't kicking styles. When they do kick, they are below waist level and some styles only had one or two kicks - a front kick and a stomp kick. The stance protects the groin from that common front kick, much in the way the Thai stance elbow position protects against the roundhouse. The guard is closer how I learned it, but pretty much all San zhan / sanchin is similar. The stance is for protection and rooting, maximizing the amount of short power that can be easily applied.
    i'm nobody...i'm nobody. i'm a tramp, a bum, a hobo... a boxcar and a jug of wine... but i'm a straight razor if you get to close to me.

    -Charles Manson

    I will punch, kick, choke, throw or joint manipulate any nationality equally without predjudice.

    - Shonie Carter

  14. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    Traditional Thai guard is actually more open, as the elbows flare outward. That is done so That incoming round kicks have possibility of connecting with your elbow, damaging the opponent. The elbow down position seen here prevents the elbow from being used as a lever in chin na. The pigeon toed stance is for protection. The southern styles aren't kicking styles. When they do kick, they are below waist level and some styles only had one or two kicks - a front kick and a stomp kick. The stance protects the groin from that common front kick, much in the way the Thai stance elbow position protects against the roundhouse. The guard is closer how I learned it, but pretty much all San zhan / sanchin is similar. The stance is for protection and rooting, maximizing the amount of short power that can be easily applied.
    Thanks SevenStar.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SevenStar View Post
    Traditional Thai guard is actually more open, as the elbows flare outward. That is done so That incoming round kicks have possibility of connecting with your elbow, damaging the opponent. The elbow down position seen here prevents the elbow from being used as a lever in chin na. The pigeon toed stance is for protection. The southern styles aren't kicking styles. When they do kick, they are below waist level and some styles only had one or two kicks - a front kick and a stomp kick. The stance protects the groin from that common front kick, much in the way the Thai stance elbow position protects against the roundhouse. The guard is closer how I learned it, but pretty much all San zhan / sanchin is similar. The stance is for protection and rooting, maximizing the amount of short power that can be easily applied.
    Good info.

    I would point out that there are variations (some great) among southern styles. Styles like CLF, Hung Gar, Mok Gar, etc., have more kicks and/or open positions and movements than the (primarily Fujian?) systems that specialize in short-hand. That doesn't necessarily mean the more 'open/expansive' styles are more vulnerable, but they operate on different principles. I still wouldn't classify them as 'kicking styles' per se, but they are far more versatile in leg techniques than just a low front snap kick and low heel thrust. Although I have heard that Hung Gar was originally narrower and less expansive than it's often seen now.

    I studied Lung Ying (Dragon) for a while in the '80s, and there was a lot of front knee and foot pointed in, elbows down and chest caved in. Even more "closed in" than the San Zhan stance appears to me. It was a good system, but it felt uncomfortable and unnatural to me, even after 18 months, so I moved on. Someone else might feel differently.

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