Okinawan Karate: True Combat Art

[Jimbo]

This video is awesome. I wish this could be posted in the general kung fu forum. I think this is among the better TMA-related videos on YouTube. It certainly deserves to be seen because it's so well-done. I do wish they had given more acknowledgement to karate's CMA roots. It IS a mixed martial art, but so is EVERY martial art. So it's A mixed martial art, but not THE original MMA. Other than that, GREAT video IMO.

It's divided into sections, which begin at: 0:01, 3:00 and 5:10.

[boxerbilly]

Someone has good eyes.

Thanks Jimbo.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only concern I have with some of the bunkai showed here ( and in other videos) is that when they try to explain some of the moves as grappling /throwing moves.
Look, it may be POSSIBLE to interpret them as such ( and some, like low sweeps are obvious) BUT we have to be very careful NOT to make them up.
Practically speaking, the way the kata is done MUST mimic the ACTUAL move to at least a good 90%, if not the gross motor skills will NOT be there.
And in some cases they simply do not do that.

[Jimbo]

I see your point and agree in many ways, SR. And even if those particular bunkai are throws, in order to be useable they would have to be trained extensively apart from formal bunkai practice, much in the way that judo is practiced. Perhaps in the video they are simply demonstrating the throws as they literally appear in the kata.

In CMA (and probably in Okinawan karate, too), it's often said that every movement has multiple possible applications. This is certainly true; however, IMO, there was/is always a primary application behind every movement. I do not believe that whoever created the forms had half a dozen applications in mind for every movement.

As far as kata movements looking at least 90% like the movement, I'm wondering if the Okinawans might have purposely disguised some of them in the forms. In the same manner that there are applications in northern Changquan (Long Fist) styles that look different than in the form. This could be due to seemingly confusing changes in direction, etc., etc. I have heard that, at least in Long Fist, much of this confusion was created on purpose, but that in many instances it has backfired, with many teachers not understanding the true applications of many of the moves. This has resulted in LF schools in which they do the forms well but cannot fight with the techniques and principles within their art. Then the art itself is sometimes labeled as 'impractical' or 'hard to use'. I don't know about that; I'm just presenting what I have heard from some CMA writers(s).

[sanjuro_ronin]

You may have a point, I heard that to ( and read about it).
IMO it does make sense BUT as you stated, it tended to be counter-productive in the long run.

To be honest, any fighting sequence done as a kata is not very realistic unless you have a pretty good grasp of the core of the system so it may have been a away to guard the high level stuff not so much from outsiders but from practitioners that hadn't paid their dues yet.

I toughly enjoy Ian Abernathy's stuff BUT to be honest, at times, it seems a bit of a stretch.
I can say this though, many of the moves in forms are NOT counters to strikes but attempts to grab or grapple or to counter an opponents attempt to engage.

[Kevin73]

You may have a point, I heard that to ( and read about it).
IMO it does make sense BUT as you stated, it tended to be counter-productive in the long run.

To be honest, any fighting sequence done as a kata is not very realistic unless you have a pretty good grasp of the core of the system so it may have been a away to guard the high level stuff not so much from outsiders but from practitioners that hadn't paid their dues yet.

I toughly enjoy Ian Abernathy's stuff BUT to be honest, at times, it seems a bit of a stretch.
I can say this though, many of the moves in forms are NOT counters to strikes but attempts to grab or grapple or to counter an opponents attempt to engage.

Here is where many people get stuck on kata application.

Kata was a mnemonic device to aid students. Much like students learned Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally to learn the order of operations in basic math...parenthesis, multiplication/division, addition/subtraction.

The applications were trained first and then a student learned that piece of the kata. The movements in the kata would help the student remember all the different applications. The kata would have multiple applications for a series of movements that were VERY similar. As we know in the Chinese arts, some moves are not "applications" but conceptual movements or chi gung movements to train things. Also, the okinawans admitted that there were layers of application in the kata depending on who they were teaching. There was a very good article in Classical Fighting Arts, that an okinawan karate master said that he was taught by his instructor that each application had 3 levels, the basic block/punch/kick, the grappling aspect of throws/locks, and then the lethal applications of tearing/gouging etc.

Fast forward and an art that was passed down to a conquering people and many instructors killed during that war or stopped practicing due to survival and much of the applications passed on were the first level of application--block/punch/kick. They adopted the Shotokan sparring distance (which was based on Kendo) and you make a civilian self-defense system which was close quarters combat and turn it into a long distance sport. The applications don't fit the range, which is why in Japanese karate the emphasis was the 3K's (kihon, kata, kumite) and the kata and kumite have no relation to each other.

Since applications were lost in some cases, we have instructors trying to reverse engineer them based on their experience. Some ideas are good, but others are not. But, I have seen the tendency to have applications for ALL movements and they won't admit that some of those movements were not applications but conceptual (for example, the bridge hand training at the beginning of Hung Gar's Taming the Tiger).

Going back to the previous example of "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally", and if the math books were lost and just this phrase was passed on to future generations who were not familiar with it, we could in all likelihood bet that it could be misconstrued as a phrase used to teach manners to those 20th century school kids. Much like the state of karate in many cases.

[boxerbilly]

I see your point and agree in many ways, SR. And even if those particular bunkai are throws, in order to be useable they would have to be trained extensively apart from formal bunkai practice, much in the way that judo is practiced. Perhaps in the video they are simply demonstrating the throws as they literally appear in the kata.

In CMA (and probably in Okinawan karate, too), it's often said that every movement has multiple possible applications. This is certainly true; however, IMO, there was/is always a primary application behind every movement. I do not believe that whoever created the forms had half a dozen applications in mind for every movement.

As far as kata movements looking at least 90% like the movement, I'm wondering if the Okinawans might have purposely disguised some of them in the forms. In the same manner that there are applications in northern Changquan (Long Fist) styles that look different than in the form. This could be due to seemingly confusing changes in direction, etc., etc. I have heard that, at least in Long Fist, much of this confusion was created on purpose, but that in many instances it has backfired, with many teachers not understanding the true applications of many of the moves. This has resulted in LF schools in which they do the forms well but cannot fight with the techniques and principles within their art. Then the art itself is sometimes labeled as 'impractical' or 'hard to use'. I don't know about that; I'm just presenting what I have heard from some CMA writers(s).

I think all the potential variations of applications are possible. But many are highly unlikely to present but as in the video sometimes.

[mawali]

Okinawan karate does have a South China root and its combat origin is intact but the rage after WW2 has been sport for competition.
The mindset is different despite the same or similar movements are being used as part of utility and function.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdx5EWuxUs0
Okinawan Old School Karata as distinct from what we see as sport Karate


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpNTwZyZZzI
Okinawan karate Naihanchi kata

[boxerbilly]

I see your point and agree in many ways, SR. And even if those particular bunkai are throws, in order to be useable they would have to be trained extensively apart from formal bunkai practice, much in the way that judo is practiced. Perhaps in the video they are simply demonstrating the throws as they literally appear in the kata.

In CMA (and probably in Okinawan karate, too), it's often said that every movement has multiple possible applications. This is certainly true; however, IMO, there was/is always a primary application behind every movement. I do not believe that whoever created the forms had half a dozen applications in mind for every movement.

As far as kata movements looking at least 90% like the movement, I'm wondering if the Okinawans might have purposely disguised some of them in the forms. In the same manner that there are applications in northern Changquan (Long Fist) styles that look different than in the form. This could be due to seemingly confusing changes in direction, etc., etc. I have heard that, at least in Long Fist, much of this confusion was created on purpose, but that in many instances it has backfired, with many teachers not understanding the true applications of many of the moves. This has resulted in LF schools in which they do the forms well but cannot fight with the techniques and principles within their art. Then the art itself is sometimes labeled as 'impractical' or 'hard to use'. I don't know about that; I'm just presenting what I have heard from some CMA writers(s).

Jimbo , thanks for the latest set of vids. Appreciated.

Any and all. What are your conclusions on this happening not only in karate and Long Fist as Jimbo has heard but across all the Chinese schools some of you with greater understanding have seen ?

Sorry, meaning even the instructor at that school is misunderstanding the applications ?

[-N-]

Any and all. What are your conclusions on this happening not only in karate and Long Fist as Jimbo has heard but across all the Chinese schools some of you with greater understanding have seen ?

Sorry, meaning even the instructor at that school is misunderstanding the applications ?

Pretty common from what I've seen.

[Jimbo]

Jimbo , thanks for the latest set of vids. Appreciated.

Any and all. What are your conclusions on this happening not only in karate and Long Fist as Jimbo has heard but across all the Chinese schools some of you with greater understanding have seen ?

Sorry, meaning even the instructor at that school is misunderstanding the applications ?

Kevin73's post (#19) is an excellent one.

There were times in CMA history where it was thought that functionality began to suffer, such as during the Ming Dynasty. General Qi Jiguang had pointed this out, that much of CMA had lost its practical usage and become more performance-oriented. And much later, after the Boxer Rebellion in 1900, the "boxers" were shown to be useless against the foreigners' guns. Many of the "boxers" had performed rituals that they believed would make them impervious to bullets. They believed wrong. Then the combat reputation of CMA took a plunge. Afterwards, in order to restore interest, as well as strengthen Chinese citizens, CMA began to be promoted as a way to become fit and strong. It was around this time that many new forms were created and added into many systems. Prior to that, nobody learned 50 forms.

At the first northern-style school I trained at in Taiwan, there was a da shi xiong ("great elder teacher-brother"/senior classmate) who was known as something of an authority on CMA. He wrote magazine articles and small books and such. He even met and wrote a magazine article about the famous master Wan Laisheng in China. I don't remember his name. I only saw him a few times, not actually practicing himself, but coming by once in a blue moon and standing there watching us practicing. One time I overheard him saying to some of the students, "If you only know Tang Lang Shou, you can already fight." Tang Lang Shou (Praying Mantis Hand) was the first form taught in that particular Mantis school.

Even when I heard that (back in the mid-1980s), I knew that to be untrue, or only partially true. If you really understood most of the important applications, understood how they worked in relation to the system and adapted them for use, and really drilled and trained the hell out of them, yes, you could probably fight. But the way he said it, you just needed to "know the form" and you'd automatically be able to fight with it. And admittedly, I did not, and neither did the majority of other people I trained with in that particular school. At that time, I did the Mantis forms but still fought using kenpo/karate, and could beat most of the advanced students in sparring on the rare occasions they did spar. I think this is a common issue among many CMA schools. The forms take on an almost obsessive importance, such as, "You need to have such-and-such forms to really get the Mantis system". I got stuck into that mindset for a while before switching to a school that stressed applications.

I felt that the head teacher of that first school understood the applications himself but chose not to teach them, for whatever reasons.

P.S.:
I realize this is discussing CMA in the Other Related Arts forum, but it's very possible the same types or similar issues have happened across the board in many MA.

[mickey]

Any and all. What are your conclusions on this happening not only in karate and Long Fist as Jimbo has heard but across all the Chinese schools some of you with greater understanding have seen

Greetings,

One thing that we need to observe about China, Japan and Okinawa was the level of social stratification, either by culture or subjugation, that existed during the early 20th century (which is not to say it no longer exists). The fall of the Ching Dynasty left many military men without jobs. The same can be said about Japan. Now, do you teach people in these "lower" classes the stuff you learned to keep them in line? Would you give them the secrets?


mckey

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