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Thread: Okinawan Karate: True Combat Art

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    I believe that was the forming of the JKA. Funakoshi was asked to teach at Kodokan. I forget the Okinawan master that was likely responsible for the "possible"
    watering down of Okinawan karate. To be taught in the schools like gym class.

    The Kodokan invited all Jujitsu masters to teach there. It was not just for sport. That came after MacCarther if I am correct.
    I believe it was a committee of Okinawan masters who went about modifying karate for Japanese school kids, probably with Funakoshi at the forefront of the movement. I heard that it was primarily to strengthen and discipline the boys for military service. During the 1930s, Funakoshi's son Gigo began further modifying Shotokan in Japan by widening and lowering the stances, expanding the movements, and using higher kicks, creating the characteristics of modern Shotokan. I heard that the karate roundhouse kick came about either at this time, or later, when karate competitions began taking off. Mostly as a horizontal version of the front kick to go around blocks.

    I remember reading that judo was under consideration for the Olympics as early as the 1930s(?), but I don't remember if Kano was for it or not.

    As far as the U.S. occupation of Japan, apparently it was arts like judo, kendo, etc. that were mainly affected by the ban on MA practice. I heard that karate largely escaped the ban due to being seen mostly as a 'dance'. Probably due to only kata being seen by U.S. authorities in Japan. I believe the first karate shiai (competition) occurred around 1957 or so (I'm too lazy to look it up).

    Also, when karate was originally introduced into Japan, there was initial reluctance among many Japanese MAists to accept karate as a 'budo'. It was seen as a 'lowly' backwater Okinawan MA suitable only for brawling. Another reason why Funakoshi modified karate from 'karate-jutsu' to 'karate-do'.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 12-14-2016 at 08:45 PM.

  2. #17
    That was great. Especially- "Also, when karate was originally introduced into Japan, there was initial reluctance among many Japanese MAists to accept karate as a 'budo'. It was seen as a 'lowly' backwater Okinawan MA suitable only for brawling. Another reason why Funakoshi modified karate from 'karate-jutsu' to 'karate-do'.

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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    That was great. Especially- "Also, when karate was originally introduced into Japan, there was initial reluctance among many Japanese MAists to accept karate as a 'budo'. It was seen as a 'lowly' backwater Okinawan MA suitable only for brawling. Another reason why Funakoshi modified karate from 'karate-jutsu' to 'karate-do'.

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    Unfortunately, it's true.

    Cool photo of Choki Motobu (Funakoshi's fellow Okinawan and bitter rival).
    Last edited by Jimbo; 12-14-2016 at 08:50 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    You may have a point, I heard that to ( and read about it).
    IMO it does make sense BUT as you stated, it tended to be counter-productive in the long run.

    To be honest, any fighting sequence done as a kata is not very realistic unless you have a pretty good grasp of the core of the system so it may have been a away to guard the high level stuff not so much from outsiders but from practitioners that hadn't paid their dues yet.

    I toughly enjoy Ian Abernathy's stuff BUT to be honest, at times, it seems a bit of a stretch.
    I can say this though, many of the moves in forms are NOT counters to strikes but attempts to grab or grapple or to counter an opponents attempt to engage.
    Here is where many people get stuck on kata application.

    Kata was a mnemonic device to aid students. Much like students learned Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally to learn the order of operations in basic math...parenthesis, multiplication/division, addition/subtraction.

    The applications were trained first and then a student learned that piece of the kata. The movements in the kata would help the student remember all the different applications. The kata would have multiple applications for a series of movements that were VERY similar. As we know in the Chinese arts, some moves are not "applications" but conceptual movements or chi gung movements to train things. Also, the okinawans admitted that there were layers of application in the kata depending on who they were teaching. There was a very good article in Classical Fighting Arts, that an okinawan karate master said that he was taught by his instructor that each application had 3 levels, the basic block/punch/kick, the grappling aspect of throws/locks, and then the lethal applications of tearing/gouging etc.

    Fast forward and an art that was passed down to a conquering people and many instructors killed during that war or stopped practicing due to survival and much of the applications passed on were the first level of application--block/punch/kick. They adopted the Shotokan sparring distance (which was based on Kendo) and you make a civilian self-defense system which was close quarters combat and turn it into a long distance sport. The applications don't fit the range, which is why in Japanese karate the emphasis was the 3K's (kihon, kata, kumite) and the kata and kumite have no relation to each other.

    Since applications were lost in some cases, we have instructors trying to reverse engineer them based on their experience. Some ideas are good, but others are not. But, I have seen the tendency to have applications for ALL movements and they won't admit that some of those movements were not applications but conceptual (for example, the bridge hand training at the beginning of Hung Gar's Taming the Tiger).

    Going back to the previous example of "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally", and if the math books were lost and just this phrase was passed on to future generations who were not familiar with it, we could in all likelihood bet that it could be misconstrued as a phrase used to teach manners to those 20th century school kids. Much like the state of karate in many cases.
    "God gave you a brain, and it annoys Him greatly when you choose not to use it."

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Unfortunately, it's true.

    Cool photo of Choki Motobu (Funakoshi's fellow Okinawan and bitter rival).
    There is a quote somewhere from Motobu where he states that karate is best used against people who don't know it's methods ie: untrained fighters.
    "God gave you a brain, and it annoys Him greatly when you choose not to use it."

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin73 View Post
    There is a quote somewhere from Motobu where he states that karate is best used against people who don't know it's methods ie: untrained fighters.
    I believe that to be true.

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Unfortunately, it's true.

    Cool photo of Choki Motobu (Funakoshi's fellow Okinawan and bitter rival).
    Jimbo . My sister. She had to do a report a few years back. I assisted her. Sadly much of the history was destroyed during WW2. I told her what I knew and told her to double check everything I say. I then directed her to a Okinawan writer and that there was a copy of his book in one of the libraries on the island. Ive never seen that book personally. Cant recall the title.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by mawali View Post
    Okinawan karate does have a South China root and its combat origin is intact but the rage after WW2 has been sport for competition.
    The mindset is different despite the same or similar movements are being used as part of utility and function.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jdx5EWuxUs0
    Okinawan Old School Karata as distinct from what we see as sport Karate


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpNTwZyZZzI
    Okinawan karate Naihanchi kata
    I hope Ryans doing well. I think he contracted legionnaires disease. We had some cases here a few years back.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Jimbo . My sister. She had to do a report a few years back. I assisted her. Sadly much of the history was destroyed during WW2. I told her what I knew and told her to double check everything I say. I then directed her to a Okinawan writer and that there was a copy of his book in one of the libraries on the island. Ive never seen that book personally. Cant recall the title.
    Cool. I remember you mentioning your sister was Okinawan.

    I'll go a bit OT and mention that I recently discovered that my last name is found mainly in the Ryukyu islands and western Japan. Southwestern Japan (Kyushu) is where the majority of Ryukyuans (including Okinawans) who were seeking work and better living conditions migrated to. It's not only possible but probable that my grandfather (dad's side) was originally from the Ryukyu islands, maybe even Okinawa, though he came here from Kyushu. I always wondered why my dad's side looked (and acted) differently than what most people stereotypically expect of Japanese people. Only problem is my grandfather was tall; just over 6' tall, and stocky. Good-sized for even a Westerner of that time, let alone a Japanese, and especially an Okinawan or Ryukyuan. Maybe my grandfather's size was an anomaly. Ryukyuans/Okinawans are one of the 'indigenous' minority groups in Japan.

    It's not really a big deal either way, but I was a bit surprised when investigating the origins of my paternal side.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 12-15-2016 at 09:37 AM.

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    Cool. I remember you mentioning your sister was Okinawan.

    I'll go a bit OT and mention that I recently discovered that my last name is found mainly in the Ryukyu islands and western Japan. Southwestern Japan (Kyushu) is where the majority of Ryukyuans (including Okinawans) who were seeking work and better living conditions migrated to. It's not only possible but probable that my grandfather (dad's side) was originally from the Ryukyu islands, maybe even Okinawa, though he came here from Kyushu. I always wondered why my dad's side looked (and acted) differently than what most people stereotypically expect of Japanese people. Only problem is my grandfather was tall; just over 6' tall, and stocky. Good-sized for even a Westerner of that time, let alone a Japanese, and especially an Okinawan or Ryukyuan. Maybe my grandfather's size was an anomaly. Ryukyuans/Okinawans are one of the 'indigenous' minority groups in Japan.

    It's not really a big deal either way, but I was a bit surprised when investigating the origins of my paternal side.
    The book Shogun comes to mind.

    Jimbo maybe you are related to Choki .

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    The book Shogun comes to mind.

    Jimbo maybe you are related to Choki .
    Billy, I don't think we're related at all. Choki Motobu was descended from Okinawan royalty. I don't think my paternal grandfather had any noble blood at all. Although they were contemporaries; Choki Motobu (1870-1944) was born only a year before my grandfather.

  12. #27
    Sorry buddy, I thought cool ass bragging rights for you.

  13. #28
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    There's no English, but very good stuff, nonetheless.



    *{Continued next post...}*
    Last edited by Jimbo; 12-16-2016 at 04:48 PM.

  14. #29
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    *{Continued from previous post...}*


  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    I see your point and agree in many ways, SR. And even if those particular bunkai are throws, in order to be useable they would have to be trained extensively apart from formal bunkai practice, much in the way that judo is practiced. Perhaps in the video they are simply demonstrating the throws as they literally appear in the kata.

    In CMA (and probably in Okinawan karate, too), it's often said that every movement has multiple possible applications. This is certainly true; however, IMO, there was/is always a primary application behind every movement. I do not believe that whoever created the forms had half a dozen applications in mind for every movement.

    As far as kata movements looking at least 90% like the movement, I'm wondering if the Okinawans might have purposely disguised some of them in the forms. In the same manner that there are applications in northern Changquan (Long Fist) styles that look different than in the form. This could be due to seemingly confusing changes in direction, etc., etc. I have heard that, at least in Long Fist, much of this confusion was created on purpose, but that in many instances it has backfired, with many teachers not understanding the true applications of many of the moves. This has resulted in LF schools in which they do the forms well but cannot fight with the techniques and principles within their art. Then the art itself is sometimes labeled as 'impractical' or 'hard to use'. I don't know about that; I'm just presenting what I have heard from some CMA writers(s).
    Jimbo , thanks for the latest set of vids. Appreciated.

    Any and all. What are your conclusions on this happening not only in karate and Long Fist as Jimbo has heard but across all the Chinese schools some of you with greater understanding have seen ?

    Sorry, meaning even the instructor at that school is misunderstanding the applications ?

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