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Thread: Okinawan Karate: True Combat Art

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Any and all. What are your conclusions on this happening not only in karate and Long Fist as Jimbo has heard but across all the Chinese schools some of you with greater understanding have seen ?

    Sorry, meaning even the instructor at that school is misunderstanding the applications ?
    Pretty common from what I've seen.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    This has resulted in LF schools in which they do the forms well but cannot fight with the techniques and principles within their art. Then the art itself is sometimes labeled as 'impractical' or 'hard to use'. I don't know about that; I'm just presenting what I have heard from some CMA writers(s).
    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Any and all. What are your conclusions on this happening not only in karate and Long Fist as Jimbo has heard but across all the Chinese schools some of you with greater understanding have seen ?

    Sorry, meaning even the instructor at that school is misunderstanding the applications ?
    Quote Originally Posted by -N- View Post
    Pretty common from what I've seen.
    Even look at everybody's favorite, Bruce Lee.

    He criticized and didn't understand TCMA and had to reinvent everything himself with JKD.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    Jimbo , thanks for the latest set of vids. Appreciated.

    Any and all. What are your conclusions on this happening not only in karate and Long Fist as Jimbo has heard but across all the Chinese schools some of you with greater understanding have seen ?

    Sorry, meaning even the instructor at that school is misunderstanding the applications ?
    Kevin73's post (#19) is an excellent one.

    There were times in CMA history where it was thought that functionality began to suffer, such as during the Ming Dynasty. General Qi Jiguang had pointed this out, that much of CMA had lost its practical usage and become more performance-oriented. And much later, after the Boxer Rebellion in 1900, the "boxers" were shown to be useless against the foreigners' guns. Many of the "boxers" had performed rituals that they believed would make them impervious to bullets. They believed wrong. Then the combat reputation of CMA took a plunge. Afterwards, in order to restore interest, as well as strengthen Chinese citizens, CMA began to be promoted as a way to become fit and strong. It was around this time that many new forms were created and added into many systems. Prior to that, nobody learned 50 forms.

    At the first northern-style school I trained at in Taiwan, there was a da shi xiong ("great elder teacher-brother"/senior classmate) who was known as something of an authority on CMA. He wrote magazine articles and small books and such. He even met and wrote a magazine article about the famous master Wan Laisheng in China. I don't remember his name. I only saw him a few times, not actually practicing himself, but coming by once in a blue moon and standing there watching us practicing. One time I overheard him saying to some of the students, "If you only know Tang Lang Shou, you can already fight." Tang Lang Shou (Praying Mantis Hand) was the first form taught in that particular Mantis school.

    Even when I heard that (back in the mid-1980s), I knew that to be untrue, or only partially true. If you really understood most of the important applications, understood how they worked in relation to the system and adapted them for use, and really drilled and trained the hell out of them, yes, you could probably fight. But the way he said it, you just needed to "know the form" and you'd automatically be able to fight with it. And admittedly, I did not, and neither did the majority of other people I trained with in that particular school. At that time, I did the Mantis forms but still fought using kenpo/karate, and could beat most of the advanced students in sparring on the rare occasions they did spar. I think this is a common issue among many CMA schools. The forms take on an almost obsessive importance, such as, "You need to have such-and-such forms to really get the Mantis system". I got stuck into that mindset for a while before switching to a school that stressed applications.

    I felt that the head teacher of that first school understood the applications himself but chose not to teach them, for whatever reasons.

    P.S.:
    I realize this is discussing CMA in the Other Related Arts forum, but it's very possible the same types or similar issues have happened across the board in many MA.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 12-17-2016 at 01:16 PM.

  4. #34
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    To keep on the topic of Okinawan karate, Choki Motobu (for one example) was mostly known for one kata, Naihanchi, but probably knew others. Even so, he would have known maybe a half-dozen kata, give or take. And probably knew each one very deeply.

    Compare that with the 26 kata of Shotokan karate.

    Or (referencing CMA again) the alleged "over 100 forms" of CLF. First off, if you learn 100 forms, you're going to suck at all of them. Nobody I know of has learned or practices 100 forms. There is no way to understand, let alone retain that much, much less practice it all. I have about a dozen sets in my repertoire, and some of them are very rare short sets. And yet that's still a lot of forms, IMO. And of those, there's maybe only 3 or 4 sets that I emphasize and study the most.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 12-17-2016 at 01:27 PM.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    To keep on the topic of Okinawan karate, Choki Motobu (for one example) was mostly known for one kata, Naihanchi, but probably knew others. Even so, he would have known maybe a half-dozen kata, give or take. And probably knew each one very deeply.

    Compare that with the 26 kata of Shotokan karate.

    Or (referencing CMA again) the alleged "over 100 forms" of CLF. First off, if you learn 100 forms, you're going to suck at all of them. Nobody I know of has learned or practices 100 forms. There is no way to understand, let alone retain that much, much less practice it all. I have about a dozen sets in my repertoire, and some of them are very rare short sets. And yet that's still a lot of forms, IMO. And of those, there's maybe only 3 or 4 sets that I emphasize and study the most.
    All of Kevins posts have been excellent in my opinion.

    Jimbo great insights. Thanks.

  6. #36
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    Pre-WW2 Goju-ryu karate training, probably from the 1930s. Unfortunately, the owner of this video does not allow it to be embedded.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU3SX2ZfTUA&sns=em

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxerbilly View Post
    All of Kevins posts have been excellent in my opinion.

    Jimbo great insights. Thanks.
    Thanks!

    It is interesting to see how some of the masters criticized what many people criticize today about that state of martial arts. Even read Book of 5 Rings and Musashi talking about what we have going on now. As a wise book once said, "there is nothing new under the sun".
    "God gave you a brain, and it annoys Him greatly when you choose not to use it."

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin73 View Post
    It is interesting to see how some of the masters criticized what many people criticize today about that state of martial arts. Even read Book of 5 Rings and Musashi talking about what we have going on now. As a wise book once said, "there is nothing new under the sun".
    It is human nature. Times and technology change, but some things never change, like common human behaviors and observations. In that sense, there is nothing new.

    In this footage of Shotokan karate from 1946, some of the applications shown at the beginning still show some Chinese/Okinawan influence. It appears to be a 'transition period' of sorts, where the Japanese influence was gaining precedence over the older Okinawan methods. The kumite shown towards the end looks pretty awkward and crude by later standards.


  9. #39
    If you think that was bad-



    Trying to figure it out.

  10. #40
    Figured out but where is the Isshin Ryu ?

    Oh wait, the vertical fist.

    Edit- some lines use the twist punch. Shimabuku went back and forth a lot on many ideas.

    Jimbo, Joe Lewis was trained by Shimabukus brother.
    Last edited by boxerbilly; 12-21-2016 at 11:19 AM.

  11. #41
    Jimbo, I believe you are familiar with this man-

    Isshin Ryu is a snap art. But is has evolved to encompass outside ideas.

  12. #42
    There can be many ways to spell the same word/name etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%...8Drin-ry%C5%AB

  13. #43
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    Thanks for posting those, Billy!

    Here is some footage from 1924:



    *Note:
    The narrator says 'jitsu'/'jutsu' means 'fighting. Not so. It means 'art', but in traditional Japanese MA it was used to denote a warring, combative art, as opposed to the 'do', or 'way' arts, which were intended to be practiced as ways of self-improvement first (and later as sports). The 'jitsu' arts were designed strictly for combat efficiency, whereas the 'do' arts supposedly had a higher purpose above and beyond that. But 'jitsu' itself does not mean 'fighting'.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 12-21-2016 at 03:37 PM.

  14. #44
    Thanks for explaining "jitsu" . Translations screws up a lot of things. Funny, my son just got home from taking his final exam in Japanese language. He said a lot is very difficult. He is unsure if he passed or not. And he is one smart kid. His generation all seem to be brainiacs so he is not alone there.

  15. #45
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    I only understand some words and phrases in Japanese, but couldn't carry on a conversation in it (not even close). IMO, it's a difficult language to learn, though admittedly I haven't tried (yet). I did study and speak in Mandarin, and oddly I never found that too difficult. I hope your son passed his exam.

    I'm posting this video up for contrast with the traditional Okinawan styles. These Shotokan self-defense demos are the very same ones shown in the classic karate book Karate: The Art of Empty-Hand Fighting, by Hidetaka Nishiyama and Harold C. Brown (originally published in 1960). In fact, some of the photos in the book's self-defense section are probably stills from this old film.

    The techniques are thoroughly Japanized, and are too stylized to be practical. However, the demonstrators are some true legends of Shotokan karate: Teruyuki Okazaki, Masatoshi Nakayama, Hirokazu Kanazawa, and Hidetaka Nishiyama. Of particular note is the excellence of Okazaki's kicking techniques. He was known as the best kicker of the early JKA men, with perfect form, as well as pure kicking speed that (IMO) rivaled or surpassed that of Bruce Lee. These men definitely had legendary effectiveness as karate fighters and especially as teachers, but what they did was very different from the original Okinawan fighting styles. It is easy to see how this period of Shotokan karate was THE number one influence in the development of Tang Soo Do and TKD.

    Last edited by Jimbo; 12-22-2016 at 10:13 AM.

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