Shot some footage this morning. Was planning on putting it up over on the martialtalk forum, but seeing that the moderators felt the need to semi-ban me I will put it up here instead! Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/bFcoXv7goAY
Keith
Registered User
Shot some footage this morning. Was planning on putting it up over on the martialtalk forum, but seeing that the moderators felt the need to semi-ban me I will put it up here instead! Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/bFcoXv7goAY
Keith
Registered User
Thx KPMOriginally Posted by KPM
I asked a question on MT, but guess you can't respond if semi banned.
Registered User
Nope. They mess with your Java settings somehow to make everything very difficult to load. I could see the forum just enough to tell that Guy B. is evidently still posting, but I can't get any of the actual posts to open up. Go figure! I'm beginning to think that little to no moderation is better than what has been going on there!Thx KPM
I asked a question on MT, but guess you can't respond if semi banned.
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There's lots of inconsistency form-wise in Yip Man lineages, especially with everything past Cham-kiu!
Everything you described YM pole doing are errors, not just from the perspective of my lineage, but in functionality.
Disconnected upper & lower body, muscling the pole around with weak arms, no whole body force, poor footwork, no strategy, etc. etc. (things never learned from YM).
The one thing I disagree on, and we discussed this before, is not rotating the pole during the thrust. Of course, if you hold the pole under your chin and turn your palm all the way up, you're putting yourself in a precarious position.
I'll repeat here what I said to you last time.
What makes this a real threat is holding the pole too low and thrusting incorrectly, not to mention lack of strategy. We generally won't just go thrusting at people as a first action. We want to open a line of attack so that the opponent's pole is not above ours during the thrust, anyway.
But, unless someone is twice your height, they shouldn't be able to deliver a downward blow to a high thrust held correctly, but only smack it sideward or diagonally downward at best. In which case, so long as the rear hand is not overly rotated, the pole will be securely supported by the thenar eminence. It should also not be right under your face, anyway, but inside the front shoulder.
Done correctly, a good rotation of the pole will add penetrating force without risk of getting the pole smacked out of your hands. Spiralling a "punch" from the rear hand is a common spear method in both Northern and Southern styles. Just have to know how and when to do it. It doesn't appear many YM lineages have a grasp of pole strategy outside the form.
I agree the elbow of the rear arm shouldn't be flared perpendicular to the body during the thrust. It should be aligned in the direction of the thrust. However, rotating the rear hand helps keep the elbow in and down without having an awkward wrist position which can break connection to the stance.
TY pole thrust appears a bit more of a "stab" from the arms, than a powerful penetrating blast from the whole body, but that may be what you're going for? Reason being because you "swing" the pole forward and end below chest level when your wrist, elbow, and pole are aligned on the horizontal plane.
Rotating the pole and thrusting higher angles the forearm with the elbow down so reaction force is transferred to/from the ground via the elbow, hip, and rear foot.
Hold your TY thrust out and press the tip of the pole forcefully into a solid object to feel what engages. You'll probably feel more anterior deltoid of the rear arm working in horizontal adduction. Do the same the YM way as I described and you'll feel the shoulder bypassed as force is directed more efficiently to/from the hip and rear foot via the elbow.
The TY way may be better if you're looking for quick and painful stabby actions, YM way for a powerful finishing blow. The strategies clearly differ quite a bit.
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Especially stupid if you can't even open the conversation they send you that tells you why you've been banned... because you've been banned.I'm beginning to think that little to no moderation is better than what has been going on there!You can't read it, much less appeal.
How long do you have to sit out?
Registered User
Especially stupid if you can't even open the conversation they send you that tells you why you've been banned... because you've been banned.
How long do you have to sit out?
So tell me LFJ, neither you nor Guy B. got the same "semi-ban" that me and "Nobody Important" did? If that is true, then I won't be spending much more time there!
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There's lots of inconsistency form-wise in Yip Man lineages, especially with everything past Cham-kiu!
---Very true!
Everything you described YM pole doing are errors, not just from the perspective of my lineage, but in functionality.
---Ah! But just go on youtube and search for videos of Ip Man pole (that's what I did) and you will see them all done very commonly.
The one thing I disagree on, and we discussed this before, is not rotating the pole during the thrust. Of course, if you hold the pole under your chin and turn your palm all the way up, you're putting yourself in a precarious position.
---That wasn't done in all of the pole videos I looked at, but it was done in enough of them to say that it appears to be a problem in lots of people's pole methods.
What makes this a real threat is holding the pole too low and thrusting incorrectly, not to mention lack of strategy.
---That "two step" rotating of the pole is slower and can be a problem when things are happening quickly.
We generally won't just go thrusting at people as a first action. We want to open a line of attack so that the opponent's pole is not above ours during the thrust, anyway.
---Sure. We do the same.
But, unless someone is twice your height, they shouldn't be able to deliver a downward blow to a high thrust held correctly, but only smack it sideward or diagonally downward at best.
---Nope. Easier than you think! We actually worked on an exercise for this on Saturday.
In which case, so long as the rear hand is not overly rotated, the pole will be securely supported by the thenar eminence. It should also not be right under your face, anyway, but inside the front shoulder.
---Its still going to pop up. Especially if you are using the longer and heavier pole that a lot of the Ip Man lineages like to train with.
Done correctly, a good rotation of the pole will add penetrating force without risk of getting the pole smacked out of your hands. Spiralling a "punch" from the rear hand is a common spear method in both Northern and Southern styles. Just have to know how and when to do it.
---From what I've seen, that "spiraling action" is meant to help keep the point of the spear headed in the right direction when doing a long thrust with a very flexible shaft that allows the tip of the spear to sag. That isn't really necessary with a pole that is stiffer. And if you are holding the rear hand with the palm up, a solid force from above is going to knock it out of your hand whether you have rotated the pole or not. "Penentrating force" isn't going to make any difference to how well you can keep ahold of the pole in the palm up position.
It doesn't appear many YM lineages have a grasp of pole strategy outside the form.
---As I said in the video, many YM lineages seem to just consider the pole as a conditioning tool and don't treat it as a real weapon.
I agree the elbow of the rear arm shouldn't be flared perpendicular to the body during the thrust. It should be aligned in the direction of the thrust. However, rotating the rear hand helps keep the elbow in and down without having an awkward wrist position which can break connection to the stance.
---Actually...no. Supinating the hand will naturally flare the elbow outward when the elbow is bent 90 degrees. You have to train not to do that. Pronating the hand naturally draws the elbow inward. You may not feel that because you have been training to supinate and keep the elbow in. But as I have been training a group of people new to the pole this is something I have seen in every one of them.
TY pole thrust appears a bit more of a "stab" from the arms, than a powerful penetrating blast from the whole body, but that may be what you're going for? Reason being because you "swing" the pole forward and end below chest level when your wrist, elbow, and pole are aligned on the horizontal plane.
---I wouldn't say "stab", but yes...that is a fair assessment. But the "cheung" is the same swinging motion as the "tik" while dropping forward into a low horse stance. It has enough penetrating power to knock someone off of their feet without over-extending the thrust.
Rotating the pole and thrusting higher angles the forearm with the elbow down so reaction force is transferred to/from the ground via the elbow, hip, and rear foot.
---That won't work with the elbow flared outward. Again, not everyone flares the elbow like that, but many do! Including some "Masters" showing their pole forms on youtube!
Hold your TY thrust out and press the tip of the pole forcefully into a solid object to feel what engages. You'll probably feel more anterior deltoid of the rear arm working in horizontal adduction. Do the same the YM way as I described and you'll feel the shoulder bypassed as force is directed more efficiently to/from the hip and rear foot via the elbow.
---Nope. The thrust is powered and supported by the rear arm and leg. So what is engaged mostly is the rear arm lats and the rear leg. Why would you think that holding the pole at shoulder level rather than lower (which is closer to the hips/legs) would be a better way to direct force towards the ground? That makes no biomechanical sense at all.
The TY way may be better if you're looking for quick and painful stabby actions, YM way for a powerful finishing blow. The strategies clearly differ quite a bit.
---Nope. Believe me, the "cheung" is certainly a powerful finishing blow! In fact, we don't use it that often for that reason. We can accomplish what we want with a "Tik" and it is less committed.
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Don't worry, my guy b account is limited just the same as yours. It takes a very long time to post anything or read any message. Usually it wears off after a few days.
Looks like someone very angry is posting with the "lansao" account, quite entertaining. Maybe Alan has been possessed?
Registered User
I can't even get the posts to open. I think it lasts for 1 week.
Registered User
Maybe they banned you harder than me? Mine is just very slow. NI is still posting occasionally
Why don't you log in with a different browser (or delete stored data on the one you like to use), go to the site, make a new ID (KMP?), log in with that and away you go until ban is lifted? Worked for me last time they banned me.
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Responding to all these points together, since the obvious answer is simple.
Most YM students never got past the CK form, and definitely never touched the weapons under his instruction. The knives are an even worse nightmare than the pole!
We know only a few ever completed the system, because by all accounts only 4 ever received the knives. So, all the errors seen committed by "masters" on Youtube really don't matter since they made it up themselves. They are not representative of YM pole work.
Because you train a different pole system that does low thrusts.
But, unless someone is twice your height, they shouldn't be able to deliver a downward blow to a high thrust held correctly, but only smack it sideward or diagonally downward at best.
---Nope. Easier than you think! We actually worked on an exercise for this on Saturday.
Impossible when the pole is securely supported by the thenar eminence, as I said. If you over-rotate to where it's just the fingertips holding on, of course it will pop up, but that would be an error, anyway.
In which case, so long as the rear hand is not overly rotated, the pole will be securely supported by the thenar eminence. It should also not be right under your face, anyway, but inside the front shoulder.
---Its still going to pop up. Especially if you are using the longer and heavier pole that a lot of the Ip Man lineages like to train with.
Again, don't over-rotate.Done correctly, a good rotation of the pole will add penetrating force without risk of getting the pole smacked out of your hands. Spiralling a "punch" from the rear hand is a common spear method in both Northern and Southern styles. Just have to know how and when to do it.
---From what I've seen, that "spiraling action" is meant to help keep the point of the spear headed in the right direction when doing a long thrust with a very flexible shaft that allows the tip of the spear to sag. That isn't really necessary with a pole that is stiffer. And if you are holding the rear hand with the palm up, a solid force from above is going to knock it out of your hand whether you have rotated the pole or not. "Penentrating force" isn't going to make any difference to how well you can keep ahold of the pole in the palm up position.
Quite the opposite!I agree the elbow of the rear arm shouldn't be flared perpendicular to the body during the thrust. It should be aligned in the direction of the thrust. However, rotating the rear hand helps keep the elbow in and down without having an awkward wrist position which can break connection to the stance.
---Actually...no. Supinating the hand will naturally flare the elbow outward when the elbow is bent 90 degrees. You have to train not to do that. Pronating the hand naturally draws the elbow inward. You may not feel that because you have been training to supinate and keep the elbow in. But as I have been training a group of people new to the pole this is something I have seen in every one of them.
Hold your hand pronated with fingers touching your opposite shoulder and elbow straight out parallel to the ground. From there, try to supinate your hand. You won't be able to turn the palm over without the elbow being forced down. Once supinated, you have to force your elbow to flare out, and you still won't be able to do it much. This is naturally drawing the elbow inward!
As you start rotating your hand back to the pronated position, it gets easier and easier to flare the elbow, until once again fully parallel to the ground. You can flap your arm in the chicken dance from that position. Keeping your elbow down with the hand pronated is something you choose to do.
If pole thrusting at shoulder level with a pronated hand and low elbow, like WT for example, the wrist will be in a very awkwardly bent and twisted position and will bear the force coming back on it. (They don't know this because they never do heavy target practice.)
By rotating the hand toward supination, you straighten out the wrist to a more natural and comfortable position that will allow the force to redirect down through the elbow that is brought down and in by this rotation.
You only need to rotate enough to straighten out the wrist while keeping the elbow down. Of course, over-rotating can cause risk having the pole knocked out of your hand. But that's why you don't over-rotate.
The lat would be used in medial rotation of the arm, but there is no such active rotation. The position is held passively. The active movers in the pole thrust are going to be your pec and front delt to adduct the arm across the body.Hold your TY thrust out and press the tip of the pole forcefully into a solid object to feel what engages. You'll probably feel more anterior deltoid of the rear arm working in horizontal adduction. Do the same the YM way as I described and you'll feel the shoulder bypassed as force is directed more efficiently to/from the hip and rear foot via the elbow.
---Nope. The thrust is powered and supported by the rear arm and leg. So what is engaged mostly is the rear arm lats and the rear leg. Why would you think that holding the pole at shoulder level rather than lower (which is closer to the hips/legs) would be a better way to direct force towards the ground? That makes no biomechanical sense at all.
When you keep your pole, wrist, and elbow on the same horizontal plane, the reaction force will go back through your elbow, but since it's not redirecting downward, the force has to be countered by a strong contraction in the shoulder.
Thrusting the pole at shoulder level with the elbow angled downward is the same biomechanical sense as the basic VT punch with the fist and shoulder higher than the elbow. The elbow is at basically the same level as your low pole thrust, but it is angled downward from the forearm to more efficiently bypass the shoulder and redirect force to/from the hip and rear foot.
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Good description
Registered User
Hi LFJ
Question: when you say "we know"...who is we? And if you're one of them, can you say who the four are?
Thx
Registered User
And is it the same for pole? Ie only a few learned it from YM?
Registered User
Most YM students never got past the CK form, and definitely never touched the weapons under his instruction. The knives are an even worse nightmare than the pole!
We know only a few ever completed the system, because by all accounts only 4 ever received the knives. So, all the errors seen committed by "masters" on Youtube really don't matter since they made it up themselves. They are not representative of YM pole work.
---Yes. Good point!
Because you train a different pole system that does low thrusts.
---No. You missed my meaning. This past weekend we worked on a drill to deal with high thrusts. And I'll say again....its much easier to come down on top of a high thrust than you seem to believe.
Impossible when the pole is securely supported by the thenar eminence, as I said. If you over-rotate to where it's just the fingertips holding on, of course it will pop up, but that would be an error, anyway.
---No. Not impossible. Its beginning to sound like you have never really trained the pole as a real weapon. While supporting the grip with the thenar eminence on top is certainly better than being completely palm up, to think a heavy pole getting whacked pretty forcefully is not going to pop out of your grip is wrong. Being completely palm down is the most secure way to hold the pole.
Hold your hand pronated with fingers touching your opposite shoulder and elbow straight out parallel to the ground. From there, try to supinate your hand. You won't be able to turn the palm over without the elbow being forced down. Once supinated, you have to force your elbow to flare out, and you still won't be able to do it much. This is naturally drawing the elbow inward!
---No. I think you are seeing what you want to see. As I noted before, you've trained this way so it seems natural to you. You are likely dropping your elbow rather than just leaving it in position to see what happens. Or you are over-rotating and forcing the supination. I have been teaching this to newbies lately and watching what they do. The tendency when someone supinates with the arm in that position is for the elbow to flare out. Why else do you think that is such an obvious and common error when you start looking at people doing the pole? If you are palm up and trying to grip the pole, you have to angle your wrist inward quite a bit. This flares the elbow outward in order to help align the wrist and reduce how much you have to angle it. People do this naturally to take pressure off of the wrist. When you are palm down and gripping the pole, angling the wrist pulls the elbow inward and people will more naturally tuck the elbow in to take the pressure off of the wrist. Regardless, it doesn't really matter. Keeping the elbow down and in is the important part, which we both agree upon!
As you start rotating your hand back to the pronated position, it gets easier and easier to flare the elbow, until once again fully parallel to the ground. You can flap your arm in the chicken dance from that position. Keeping your elbow down with the hand pronated is something you choose to do.
---You are not thinking in terms of trying to grip a pole at the same time!
By rotating the hand toward supination, you straighten out the wrist to a more natural and comfortable position that will allow the force to redirect down through the elbow that is brought down and in by this rotation.
---I will agree that having the hand HALF WAY into supination takes stress off of the wrist. But being fully in supination or fully in pronation is no difference as far as the angle of the wrist. In fact, to me at least, being fully supinated feels much more stressful on the wrist.....but maybe because this is the way I've been training. And as I pointed out....people will flare the elbow outward to relieve this stress on the wrist when in supination, and will tuck the elbow in to relieve the pressure on the wrist when in pronation. You are splitting the difference to relieve pressure on the wrist, but sacrificing some of the security of the grip in the process.
The lat would be used in medial rotation of the arm, but there is no such active rotation. The position is held passively. The active movers in the pole thrust are going to be your pec and front delt to adduct the arm across the body.
---So you think that the force of a thrust connecting is getting directed through the body and into the ground WITHOUT firing any other muscles????
When you keep your pole, wrist, and elbow on the same horizontal plane, the reaction force will go back through your elbow, but since it's not redirecting downward, the force has to be countered by a strong contraction in the shoulder.
---I'm not clear on what you are trying to say. We've both agree that the elbow shouldn't be flared outward on the same horizontal plane as the pole. Are you saying that when you do a full thrust you don't have the pole on a horizontal plane and are angling it upward?
Thrusting the pole at shoulder level with the elbow angled downward is the same biomechanical sense as the basic VT punch with the fist and shoulder higher than the elbow. The elbow is at basically the same level as your low pole thrust, but it is angled downward from the forearm to more efficiently bypass the shoulder and redirect force to/from the hip and rear foot.
---Sure. But again, you don't think it would more easily bypass the shoulder and redirect force through the rear leg when the pole is held lower than the shoulder?
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