Tang Yik Weng Chun Pole Method

[guy b.]

Hold your hand pronated with fingers touching your opposite shoulder and elbow straight out parallel to the ground. From there, try to supinate your hand. You won't be able to turn the palm over without the elbow being forced down. Once supinated, you have to force your elbow to flare out, and you still won't be able to do it much. This is naturally drawing the elbow inward!


---No. I think you are seeing what you want to see. As I noted before, you've trained this way so it seems natural to you. You are likely dropping your elbow rather than just leaving it in position to see what happens. Or you are over-rotating and forcing the supination. I have been teaching this to newbies lately and watching what they do. The tendency when someone supinates with the arm in that position is for the elbow to flare out. Why else do you think that is such an obvious and common error when you start looking at people doing the pole? If you are palm up and trying to grip the pole, you have to angle your wrist inward quite a bit. This flares the elbow outward in order to help align the wrist and reduce how much you have to angle it. People do this naturally to take pressure off of the wrist. When you are palm down and gripping the pole, angling the wrist pulls the elbow inward and people will more naturally tuck the elbow in to take the pressure off of the wrist. Regardless, it doesn't really matter. Keeping the elbow down and in is the important part, which we both agree upon!

Follow the description. Palm up pulls the elbow in. Same reason you do tan 1x in SNT and fuk many times

Thrusting the pole at shoulder level with the elbow angled downward is the same biomechanical sense as the basic VT punch with the fist and shoulder higher than the elbow. The elbow is at basically the same level as your low pole thrust, but it is angled downward from the forearm to more efficiently bypass the shoulder and redirect force to/from the hip and rear foot.

---Sure. But again, you don't think it would more easily bypass the shoulder and redirect force through the rear leg when the pole is held lower than the shoulder?

Elbow just needs to be correct, thrust where you like. Ground path is through elbow to hip to back foot.

[KPM]

Follow the description. Palm up pulls the elbow in. Same reason you do tan 1x in SNT and fuk many times

---The dynamic is a bit different for the arm held out in front compared to doing it with the elbow bent at 90 degrees. People will naturally flare the elbow out to relieve pressure on the wrist when the grip is in supination, and will tuck the elbow in to relieve pressure on the wrist when the hand is gripping in pronation.


Elbow just needs to be correct, thrust where you like. Ground path is through elbow to hip to back foot.


---Yes, I agree. Maybe I was misreading his meaning, but it seemed like LFJ was saying this works better with the pole up at shoulder height than it does when the pole is held lower. That I would disagree with!

[KPM]

Here is another one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_0lnNgd80A

[KPM]

Shot some footage this morning. Was planning on putting it up over on the martialtalk forum, but seeing that the moderators felt the need to semi-ban me I will put it up here instead! Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/bFcoXv7goAY


Keith

No offense to Leo Au Yeung, but this video features a lot of the differences I was pointing out: heavy pole held somewhat away from the body, wide spaced grip with rear hand behind the hip in the "ready" position, rear elbow flared out and rear hand gripping palm up during the thrust, very linear footwork, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhTRZXCvY5k

[LFJ]

Because you train a different pole system that does low thrusts.

---No. You missed my meaning. This past weekend we worked on a drill to deal with high thrusts. And I'll say again....its much easier to come down on top of a high thrust than you seem to believe.

To be sure, I'm not talking about a thrust angled upward, but a level thrust from shoulder height. Also, in application the horse will be higher than in training. Really, the only way to come straight down on that sort of strike would be to do a flying monkey slam or some sh!t.

But, in any case, if an opponent is able to come down on top of the pole thrust, the person is thrusting at the wrong time. We always open a line of attack first. So, changing your grip to feel more secure is sacrificing mechanics that bypass the shoulder and redirect to/from the ground for security that really shouldn't matter if you're attacking at the right moment (strategy).

Impossible when the pole is securely supported by the thenar eminence, as I said. If you over-rotate to where it's just the fingertips holding on, of course it will pop up, but that would be an error, anyway.

---No. Not impossible. Its beginning to sound like you have never really trained the pole as a real weapon. While supporting the grip with the thenar eminence on top is certainly better than being completely palm up, to think a heavy pole getting whacked pretty forcefully is not going to pop out of your grip is wrong. Being completely palm down is the most secure way to hold the pole.

Ha! Long weapons have always been my favorite. I've studied many pole, staff, and spear methods from several TCMAs, and they all rotate on long range thrusts. You'd think after centuries of people getting killed on the battlefield as a result of getting their weapons knocked out of their hands, people would catch on and change the grip and thrusting method!

In fact, if we look at the TY pole video, we see exactly what I've been talking about.

• Shoulder level thrust
• Elbow angled downward
• Both hands rotated

In your video, you say the lead hand stays supinated with the thumb on the side. TY's lead hand turns over as the pole is rotated during the thrust.

His rear hand is also rotated to maintain an anatomically straight wrist. An anatomically straight wrist has the hand tilted back slightly. To do this and maintain a low elbow, the hand is rotated toward supination, but is not overly rotated. The thenar eminence is still firmly securing the pole.

This is exactly how it should be done.

---No. I think you are seeing what you want to see. As I noted before, you've trained this way so it seems natural to you. You are likely dropping your elbow rather than just leaving it in position to see what happens. Or you are over-rotating and forcing the supination.

No, sir. In the experiment I provided, you literally cannot turn the palm over without the elbow being forced down.

---You are not thinking in terms of trying to grip a pole at the same time!

Same thing, unless you over-rotate one way or the other. Then the elbow is flared to take pressure off the bent wrist. Now, as I've been saying, don't over-rotate! Do it exactly as TY does in his video and the elbow stays tucked in nicely while the wrist is comfortably in an anatomically straight position.

The lat would be used in medial rotation of the arm, but there is no such active rotation. The position is held passively. The active movers in the pole thrust are going to be your pec and front delt to adduct the arm across the body.

---So you think that the force of a thrust connecting is getting directed through the body and into the ground WITHOUT firing any other muscles????

Of course not, but it ain't the lat, especially not as a prime mover!

When you keep your pole, wrist, and elbow on the same horizontal plane, the reaction force will go back through your elbow, but since it's not redirecting downward, the force has to be countered by a strong contraction in the shoulder.

---I'm not clear on what you are trying to say. We've both agree that the elbow shouldn't be flared outward on the same horizontal plane as the pole. Are you saying that when you do a full thrust you don't have the pole on a horizontal plane and are angling it upward?

No. It is level. What I'm talking about is this. Your pole, wrist, and elbow (so, forearm) are all on the same horizontal plane. (You also say you keep the pole low like this, and not all the way up like YM, but that's not what TY does.) This means reaction force is coming straight back to your elbow and is not being redirected downward. Your anterior deltoid will be strongly engaged to counter this force.

If you were to maintain this hand orientation for a shoulder-height thrust as TY does, you'd end up with your rear wrist awkwardly bent and twisted like the WT version. Any heavy target practice would show you that the wrist would bear the force this way.

To keep the wrist straight and elbow down so that reaction force is redirected downward, you must rotate the rear hand toward supination as TY does (which also turns the lead hand over). The result is penetrating force supported by the ground, rather than a quick stabby action supported by the shoulder.

Thrusting the pole at shoulder level with the elbow angled downward is the same biomechanical sense as the basic VT punch with the fist and shoulder higher than the elbow. The elbow is at basically the same level as your low pole thrust, but it is angled downward from the forearm to more efficiently bypass the shoulder and redirect force to/from the hip and rear foot.

---Sure. But again, you don't think it would more easily bypass the shoulder and redirect force through the rear leg when the pole is held lower than the shoulder?

Not the way you showed it, because force is coming back in a straight line.

It's the same reason we keep the elbow down in the basic VT punch, and use a posterior pelvic tilt so that reaction force is redirected downward to the rear heel.

[LFJ]

Question: when you say "we know"...who is we? And if you're one of them, can you say who the four are?

"We" is any observant people with half a brain. The majority of BJD material out there is insane and could not have come from YM. And, by all accounts, YM only taught the knives in any extent to at most 4 people.

As for who they are, obviously WSL received the entire form and fighting strategy, but he didn't want to embarrass anyone by naming the others.

But, we can conclude likely candidates based on time spent with YM and available material to examine.

The only other one besides WSL with anything remotely resembling usefulness and a coherent form is HKM. These are the only two guys that appear to have learned the whole system from YM. I've also heard HKM didn't finish the form before YM stopped teaching, and picked up the last section from WSL. But, saying this will only tick Joy off, so never mind.

The only other person who spent enough time with YM is CST, who was always honest about coming up with ideas himself (even for SNT), and said he only learned individual techniques, not a whole knife form. It can be seen from his knife video that he doesn't really know what he's doing with it (no awareness of knife strategy).

I'm not sure who the alleged 4th person is, though I heard it was someone who stopped training(?). I've not seen anyone else doing anything non-suicidal with the knives. Most others picked up a bit from WSL, or reverse engineered, or frankly pulled moves right out of their "4th point of contact".

And is it the same for pole? Ie only a few learned it from YM?

Evidently. As KPM has discovered, most YM lineage pole work is riddled with errors.

Indeed, very very few people ever learned YM's VT system in full. Honestly, it looks like only 2.

[wckf92]

...a flying monkey slam or some sh!t.

Got any video of this?

..... and they all rotate on long range thrusts.

Yes, this is how I was taught to do it. But, slightly different than what you and KPM are discussing.

In fact, if we look at the TY pole video, we see exactly what I've been talking about.

• Shoulder level thrust
• Elbow angled downward
• Both hands rotated

Are you saying what TY does is correct and matches how WSL does/did it?

...The thenar eminence...

Not gonna lie...had to look that one up!!!!

This is exactly how it should be done.

[wckf92]

"We" is any observant people with half a brain.

Ha! Understood. I'll look around for my other half a brain later today.

The majority of BJD material out there is insane and could not have come from YM.

Don't want to derail KPM's thread from pole to knives, but do you care to cite an example or two of BJD insanity?

The only other one besides WSL with anything remotely resembling usefulness and a coherent form is HKM.

Hmmm...interesting. How long did WSL learn from YM? And once he 'finished' did he continue to remain in contact with him?

or frankly pulled moves right out of their "4th point of contact".

Wow! Haven't heard that one on a looooong time!

Evidently. As KPM has discovered, most YM lineage pole work is riddled with errors. Indeed, very very few people ever learned YM's VT system in full. Honestly, it looks like only 2.

[KPM]

To be sure, I'm not talking about a thrust angled upward, but a level thrust from shoulder height. Also, in application the horse will be higher than in training. Really, the only way to come straight down on that sort of strike would be to do a flying monkey slam or some sh!t.

---Not true. Not unless you are trying to thrust someone in the forehead, which is typically a pretty hard target to hit! We use a "got" which is a relatively large downward blow somewhat like swinging downward with a 2-handed sword. So the drill is to sidestep and deflect that committed thrust with a "choat" (which is somewhat like a Tan Sau) and then immediately do a "got" downward that knocks the opponent's pole off-line (or completely out of their hands) and follow that immediately with a thrust.



But, in any case, if an opponent is able to come down on top of the pole thrust, the person is thrusting at the wrong time. We always open a line of attack first.

---Part of the drill I mentioned is that the opponent has done something that knocks your pole off-line and you recover with the sidestep and choat as he does his thrust.



So, changing your grip to feel more secure is sacrificing mechanics that bypass the shoulder and redirect to/from the ground for security that really shouldn't matter if you're attacking at the right moment (strategy).

---Our mechanics "bypass the shoulder" just fine and redirect to the ground...with a secure grip.





In fact, if we look at the TY pole video, we see exactly what I've been talking about.


---Good catch! What can I say? I'm showing and explaining exactly what my Sifu taught me. I'm giving his explanations and justifications which make good sense to me. Who knows? Maybe Tang Yik switched the thrust around at some point so the grip was more secure. Or maybe he was somewhat cagey like WSL and put intentional errors in that video! ;-)




Of course not, but it ain't the lat, especially not as a prime mover!

---I thought we were talking about how the force is directed to the ground, not the prime mover.



This means reaction force is coming straight back to your elbow and is not being redirected downward. Your anterior deltoid will be strongly engaged to counter this force.

---And exactly why would you think that? The pole is horizontal, the elbow is down and tucked into the body. The lats are engaged to support the torso, keep the elbow tucked, and keep the shoulders from being pushed back. All of this directs the force downward into the rear leg. Why would this be any different than doing the thrust at shoulder level? If you are trying to connect with the hip and back leg with the thrust, doesn't it make more sense to have the pole a bit lower than way up at shoulder height? Its just better biomechanics and a more direct connection that way.






To keep the wrist straight and elbow down so that reaction force is redirected downward, you must rotate the rear hand toward supination as TY does (which also turns the lead hand over). The result is penetrating force supported by the ground, rather than a quick stabby action supported by the shoulder.

---Just how is the wrist at all straight during the thrust, regardless of how you are gripping the pole? As I said before, the wrist must bend when gripping the pole. People naturally tend to relieve pressure on the wrist created by this bend. If your hand is palm up, the pressure is relieved by flaring the elbow outward. If your hand is palm down, the pressure is relieved by tucking the elbow in. Just simple biomechanics.





Not the way you showed it, because force is coming back in a straight line.

---I don't know what you are seeing, but my elbow is down and not flared out. You have caught me just before completing the thrust. At the end of the thrust the elbow is lower than the level of the pole.

[LFJ]

Got any video of this?

0:16 Yaaa!

Are you saying what TY does is correct and matches how WSL does/did it?

Yes.

do you care to cite an example or two of BJD insanity?

How about Juany on the other forum who just said he prefers Kali to BJD because their "defang the snake" philosophy, taking out the limbs, makes more sense than having to go "all the way" through their guard.

If that's what he learned as BJD, it's suicidal and he's right to learn something else.

Funny, because "defang the snake" also describes YM's BJD strategy, but obviously Cheung didn't get that in his secret closed-door training sessions.

How long did WSL learn from YM? And once he 'finished' did he continue to remain in contact with him?

He started at age 17 and did bei-mo to roughly age 24, around the time YM's teaching slowed down before retirement a couple years later. He always analyzed his experience with YM afterward.

[LFJ]

But, in any case, if an opponent is able to come down on top of the pole thrust, the person is thrusting at the wrong time. We always open a line of attack first.

---Part of the drill I mentioned is that the opponent has done something that knocks your pole off-line and you recover with the sidestep and choat as he does his thrust.

Choad to deflect before being able to come down on top of the pole. Sounds like the pole has already been taken down a notch?

---Our mechanics "bypass the shoulder" just fine and redirect to the ground...with a secure grip.

If you say so.

This means reaction force is coming straight back to your elbow and is not being redirected downward. Your anterior deltoid will be strongly engaged to counter this force.

---And exactly why would you think that? The pole is horizontal, the elbow is down and tucked into the body.

As you show it, your forearm is also horizontal.

Why would this be any different than doing the thrust at shoulder level?

Because then the forearm is angled downward.

If you are trying to connect with the hip and back leg with the thrust, doesn't it make more sense to have the pole a bit lower than way up at shoulder height? Its just better biomechanics and a more direct connection that way.

No. It's the elbow that's important. Just like you can punch at any level, but the elbow is kept down below wrist and shoulder. Triangles, man.

---Just how is the wrist at all straight during the thrust, regardless of how you are gripping the pole?

An anatomically straight wrist will have the hand tilted back slightly. This is only achieved while keeping the elbow low when you rotate the hand toward supination as TY did, without over-rotating.

If your hand is palm up, the pressure is relieved by flaring the elbow outward.

If you are over-rotating. As I keep repeating, don't over-rotate!

If your hand is palm down, the pressure is relieved by tucking the elbow in.

And this bends and twists your wrist, just like the image I snapped from your video. If thrusting any higher it will be your wrist bearing the force back on it. Do you do any heavy target practice, or just forms and two-man drills?

---I don't know what you are seeing, but my elbow is down and not flared out. You have caught me just before completing the thrust. At the end of the thrust the elbow is lower than the level of the pole.

At no point was your forearm angled downward like TY did.

[wckf92]

0:16 Yaaa!

Wow. Ok. hahaha

How about Juany on the other forum who just said he prefers Kali to BJD because their "defang the snake" philosophy, taking out the limbs, makes more sense than having to go "all the way" through their guard.
If that's what he learned as BJD, it's suicidal and he's right to learn something else.
Funny, because "defang the snake" also describes YM's BJD strategy, but obviously Cheung didn't get that in his secret closed-door training sessions.

Hmm...yeah...dunno about defanging a snake or Kali whatever, but I was taught that the forward-most hand/fingers are ripe targets for slicing/dicing/cutting/severing in WC BJD. Maybe Juany has yet to learn BJD?

I've always wondered why some wc people look outside of their wc, to kali/fma arts to 'learn footwork' and other things.

He started at age 17 and did bei-mo to roughly age 24, around the time YM's teaching slowed down before retirement a couple years later. He always analyzed his experience with YM afterward.

Cool thx.

[LFJ]

I was taught that the forward-most hand/fingers are ripe targets for slicing/dicing/cutting/severing in WC BJD.

Correct. You can't just go in with LSJC when the opponent has a knife too. Unlike a spent punch, it can still cut you on the way back, or at any time.

I've always wondered why some wc people look outside of their wc, to kali/fma arts to 'learn footwork' and other things.

Right. BJD is highly mobile and manages distance very well. Knife sparring is good for developing awareness of danger. Better learn to move yer ass!

[KPM]

As you show it, your forearm is also horizontal.


---No its not! I've already pointed out that your picture capture is "in progress." At the end of the thrust the elbow is lower than the pole. Is it your life goal to turn everything into an argument?



Because then the forearm is angled downward.

---And I have stated more than once that the elbow is also angled downward with the thrust I am describing.....and the pole is closer to the hip and therefore in better biomechanical connection.




No. It's the elbow that's important. Just like you can punch at any level, but the elbow is kept down below wrist and shoulder. Triangles, man.

---And....again...the elbow is down. The triangle is still there.



An anatomically straight wrist will have the hand tilted back slightly. This is only achieved while keeping the elbow low when you rotate the hand toward supination as TY did, without over-rotating.

---I'll say again, since you glossed over it. Gripping the end of a pole with the elbow bent at 90 degrees in no way approaches a "straight wrist." The wrist is bent. That is just an anatomical fact. Flaring the elbow outward reduces some of this bend of the wrist when the grip is palm up, and tucking the elbow in reduces some of this bend with the grip is palm down. Again, just an anatomical fact. Holding the grip half-way between supination and pronation relieves some of the pressure from the bend of the wrist, at the cost of a less secure grip compared to being completely palm down. If you are willing to accept that and don't see it as an issue, that's fine with me. But you seem to keep trying to argue against basic biomechanics here. Again, is it your goal to turn every discussion into an argument?




And this bends and twists your wrist, just like the image I snapped from your video. If thrusting any higher it will be your wrist bearing the force back on it. Do you do any heavy target practice, or just forms and two-man drills?


---What? Tucking the elbow in reduces the bend in the wrist when the grip is palm down. It isn't "bent" or "twisted" anymore than having your grip half-way between as you are talking about. During any thrust the wrist is going to have to bear some of the force regardless of how you are gripping. Turning it fully palm down vs. half-way between makes no difference in that regard. Again, why are you trying so hard to turn this into an argument?

[guy b.]

As you show it, your forearm is also horizontal.


---No its not! I've already pointed out that your picture capture is "in progress." At the end of the thrust the elbow is lower than the pole. Is it your life goal to turn everything into an argument?



Because then the forearm is angled downward.

---And I have stated more than once that the elbow is also angled downward with the thrust I am describing.....and the pole is closer to the hip and therefore in better biomechanical connection.




No. It's the elbow that's important. Just like you can punch at any level, but the elbow is kept down below wrist and shoulder. Triangles, man.

---And....again...the elbow is down. The triangle is still there.

Hi KPM, your elbow isn't down in the thrusts you show in this clip, and force isn't directed into your hip- rather it is out the back of your body. I'm not criticising per se, just pointing out what you show in this particular clip.

TY pole has always impressed me and I certainly like to watch the available clip of TY

An anatomically straight wrist will have the hand tilted back slightly. This is only achieved while keeping the elbow low when you rotate the hand toward supination as TY did, without over-rotating.

---I'll say again, since you glossed over it. Gripping the end of a pole with the elbow bent at 90 degrees in no way approaches a "straight wrist." The wrist is bent. That is just an anatomical fact. Flaring the elbow outward reduces some of this bend of the wrist when the grip is palm up, and tucking the elbow in reduces some of this bend with the grip is palm down. Again, just an anatomical fact. Holding the grip half-way between supination and pronation relieves some of the pressure from the bend of the wrist, at the cost of a less secure grip compared to being completely palm down. If you are willing to accept that and don't see it as an issue, that's fine with me. But you seem to keep trying to argue against basic biomechanics here. Again, is it your goal to turn every discussion into an argument?


And this bends and twists your wrist, just like the image I snapped from your video. If thrusting any higher it will be your wrist bearing the force back on it. Do you do any heavy target practice, or just forms and two-man drills?


---What? Tucking the elbow in reduces the bend in the wrist when the grip is palm down. It isn't "bent" or "twisted" anymore than having your grip half-way between as you are talking about. During any thrust the wrist is going to have to bear some of the force regardless of how you are gripping. Turning it fully palm down vs. half-way between makes no difference in that regard. Again, why are you trying so hard to turn this into an argument?

Isn't the clip kind of an attempt to start an argument? You seem to be criticising as "YM pole" people who don't have YM pole.

I'm not sure I even agree with LFJ about HKM. So little material is available, but what is there is not all that encouraging. And his available reps do not inspire confidence in terms of what they say. He has to be one of the better candidates though I agree. WSL is the only definite one for me.