Tang Yik Weng Chun Pole Method

[guy b.]

Heh, this empty forum feels quite nice compared to the insanity of MT

Some great stuff in the archives here too.

[LFJ]

As you show it, your forearm is also horizontal.

---No its not! I've already pointed out that your picture capture is "in progress." At the end of the thrust the elbow is lower than the pole.

I tried to get it at the very end of the thrust. Your forearm was horizontal the entire time. Even when pausing the thrust to talk about the position of the pole, and when doing the action several times. Never once was your forearm angled downward.

---And I have stated more than once that the elbow is also angled downward with the thrust I am describing.....and the pole is closer to the hip and therefore in better biomechanical connection.

Maybe you can grab a still from your video to show this then, since mine wasn't good enough.

On most of your thrusts, your elbow was actually behind your rear hip at full extension. This is where your thrust stopped. And the elbow is in line with the pole, directing force back to nothing. There is no hip connection this way. It's shoulder countering the reaction force.



Compared to this; TY's elbow is just as low, if not actually lower, but also in front of the hip with the forearm angled downward perfectly toward the hip and rear foot. Elbow-hip-foot connection obvious.

An anatomically straight wrist will have the hand tilted back slightly. This is only achieved while keeping the elbow low when you rotate the hand toward supination as TY did, without over-rotating.

---I'll say again, since you glossed over it. Gripping the end of a pole with the elbow bent at 90 degrees in no way approaches a "straight wrist." The wrist is bent. That is just an anatomical fact.

Because you haven't learned to hold the pole properly.

And this bends and twists your wrist, just like the image I snapped from your video. If thrusting any higher it will be your wrist bearing the force back on it. Do you do any heavy target practice, or just forms and two-man drills?

---What? Tucking the elbow in reduces the bend in the wrist when the grip is palm down. It isn't "bent" or "twisted" anymore than having your grip half-way between as you are talking about.

Look at your wrist compared to TY's. Yours is bent and twisted already quite severely. If you were to thrust at the level he is with your hand orientation and elbow down, the bend and twist would be even worse.

TY's arm is rotated under and the hand tilted back naturally. There is no awkward bend or twist, no strain when receiving force.

During any thrust the wrist is going to have to bear some of the force regardless of how you are gripping. Turning it fully palm down vs. half-way between makes no difference in that regard.

It certainly does when you're hitting heavy targets with a lot of force. It will cause severe strain on an awkwardly bent and twisted wrist.

With the wrist kept as TY does, it is strong and able to transfer force down to the elbow, hip, and foot. As you show you it (horizontal forearm, elbow behind hip, wrist bent and twisted), it's the wrist and shoulder countering the force.

If all you're doing is the form and two-man drills, you won't realize this.

A good tool for heavy target practice is something like a makiwara board set up on a weighted prowler sled. If your wrist is in a vulnerable position you will feel it immediately and if you are to deliver any penetrating force, you will learn to rotate on your thrust.

Again, why are you trying so hard to turn this into an argument?

Someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they are just trying to argue. I have explained technical reasons why I disagree with you here.

I actually like TY pole. It's a great method. I don't personally prefer it to YM pole, because I value simplicity, but I see no problem with it.

I disagree with the grip and thrust method you show, but fortunately when I view TY perform it, he does it correctly. So, I am relieved.

[LFJ]

Isn't the clip kind of an attempt to start an argument? You seem to be criticising as "YM pole" people who don't have YM pole.

It's pointing out differences and saying they are bad because such and such a reason. I agree with all of the points though, because they don't represent YM pole and are functional errors.

I'm not sure I even agree with LFJ about HKM. So little material is available, but what is there is not all that encouraging. And his available reps do not inspire confidence in terms of what they say. He has to be one of the better candidates though I agree. WSL is the only definite one for me.

No, I'm still with you. Best likely candidate is all, but as I've not seen HKM's stuff from him directly, it's hard to say. AF, for example, added a lot of embellishments. If HKM was a competent teacher and endorses the robotic arm-chasing tactics his lineage can be seen teaching, though, like "close the gap with bong-sau", then he's off the team. lol

[KPM]

Heh, this empty forum feels quite nice compared to the insanity of MT

Some great stuff in the archives here too.

Really? You do know what happened here, don't you? A small group of guys....mostly made up of WSLPB people...... turned every thread into an argument and essentially made this a very unpleasant place. The moderators would do nothing about it. Sound familiar? So people went elsewhere. Gene Ching laughed it off, but this forum all but died because of one group of people.

[KPM]

I tried to get it at the very end of the thrust. Your forearm was horizontal the entire time. Even when pausing the thrust to talk about the position of the pole, and when doing the action several times. Never once was your forearm angled downward.

---The elbow is angled downward. The lats are engaged. The force is directed into the rear leg because I DO do resistance training and I can feel it. I assure you that there is nothing wrong with my thrust with the pole. I do it exactly as my Sifu taught me to do it. Whether or not the forearm is in line with the pole is irrelevant when the lats are engaged properly. Holding the pole lower than shoulder height is naturally going to put the forearm closer to parallel to the pole. But the elbow is still inward and the lats engaged.



Maybe you can grab a still from your video to show this then, since mine wasn't good enough.

---I tell you what....why don't you post a video of yourself....then you can start criticizing mine!






Because you haven't learned to hold the pole properly.

--- A discussion is supposed to be an exchange of information and ideas. I am sharing information that I learned directly from my Sifu. I have worked the pole extensively and I assure you that I have discovered the most secure grip that directs force into the ground the best and protects the wrist the best. And what my Sifu taught makes perfect sense biomechanically. Now, as soon as you start posting still shots of Tang Yik over and over....that is no longer an exchange of information. That's trying to win an argument. When you start posting stills of me from my video over and over to criticize what I am doing despite my repeated explanations...that is no longer an exchange of information. That is trying to win an argument.

---Trying to deal with the BS from you and Guy was what got me temporarily banned on the other forum. Now you follow me here and once again turn a discussion into an argument. Dude, you really need to get a life, or get some therapy, or something!!!

[LFJ]

---The elbow is angled downward.

Clearly not, but alright.

The lats are engaged.

In what?

The force is directed into the rear leg because I DO do resistance training and I can feel it.

Of course you will feel the leg. You're standing on it. Doesn't mean you are efficiently redirecting force through it.

I assure you that there is nothing wrong with my thrust with the pole. I do it exactly as my Sifu taught me to do it.

But not the same as your Sigung, Tang Yik, or in a way that enables maximum power at minimum risk of self-injury.

Holding the pole lower than shoulder height is naturally going to put the forearm closer to parallel to the pole. But the elbow is still inward and the lats engaged.

So, thrust higher like TY. The elbow should be in and down.

---I tell you what....why don't you post a video of yourself....then you can start criticizing mine!

You posted your video to criticize YM pole in comparison to your method. Anyone is allowed to comment on what you freely post to the internet. Don't like it, don't post it.

Now, as soon as you start posting still shots of Tang Yik over and over....that is no longer an exchange of information.

It was posted precisely in order to exchange information. You didn't even know he performed the thrust that way!

When you start posting stills of me from my video over and over to criticize what I am doing despite my repeated explanations...that is no longer an exchange of information.

None of your explanations explained anything. You just claimed your elbow is angled downward when it's clearly not. I took the still to show that it's quite different from TY's method in several major ways, and exchanged information on the technical pros and cons between the two.

---Trying to deal with the BS from you and Guy was what got me temporarily banned on the other forum. Now you follow me here and once again turn a discussion into an argument. Dude, you really need to get a life, or get some therapy, or something!!!

Or, you could relax, consider the information I've shared, especially why TY agrees with me and not you, test out what I've explained and maybe... learn something?

If you will not even consider the information, which I think you should since you weren't even aware TY's own thrust method differs from yours, then keep on following what Sifu says, but don't get all bent out of shape with me when I kindly point it out for you.

[KPM]

"kindly"? Dude, get a life. I'm done with your BS.

[LFJ]

"kindly"?

No? Have I hurt your feelings? I'm sorry.

[guy b.]

It's pointing out differences and saying they are bad because such and such a reason. I agree with all of the points though, because they don't represent YM pole and are functional errors.



No, I'm still with you. Best likely candidate is all, but as I've not seen HKM's stuff from him directly, it's hard to say. AF, for example, added a lot of embellishments. If HKM was a competent teacher and endorses the robotic arm-chasing tactics his lineage can be seen teaching, though, like "close the gap with bong-sau", then he's off the team. lol

It's a puzzle, that's for sure. Have you ever encountered any HKM person? Can't say I ever have. It's probably the one group I am genuinely curious about, beside WSL

[guy b.]

I tried to get it at the very end of the thrust. Your forearm was horizontal the entire time. Even when pausing the thrust to talk about the position of the pole, and when doing the action several times. Never once was your forearm angled downward.

---The elbow is angled downward. The lats are engaged. The force is directed into the rear leg because I DO do resistance training and I can feel it. I assure you that there is nothing wrong with my thrust with the pole. I do it exactly as my Sifu taught me to do it. Whether or not the forearm is in line with the pole is irrelevant when the lats are engaged properly. Holding the pole lower than shoulder height is naturally going to put the forearm closer to parallel to the pole. But the elbow is still inward and the lats engaged.

Hi KPM. Really I don't think LFJ is trying to be argumentative here. But your elbow IS horizontal and protruding out the back, and there isn't a line of force through hip to back foot, in this particular clip. It is just a matter of say what you see, not a decision on the relevance of everything you have to say or show.

Like LFJ, I am very impressed by TY pole

I think you are a proud guy and it is difficult for us to talk because of previous arguments. But really, what harm in taking a little help when offered? Life is too short to be defensive

[boxerbilly]

This has been one of the most informative threads I have viewed here in recent times. Thank you all.

[KPM]

Hi KPM. Really I don't think LFJ is trying to be argumentative here. But your elbow IS horizontal and protruding out the back, and there isn't a line of force through hip to back foot, in this particular clip. It is just a matter of say what you see, not a decision on the relevance of everything you have to say or show.

Like LFJ, I am very impressed by TY pole

I think you are a proud guy and it is difficult for us to talk because of previous arguments. But really, what harm in taking a little help when offered? Life is too short to be defensive

There was a lot more to it than that. Completely denying the biomechanical explanations about the grips......nit-picking what you think you see in a video rather than believing my explanation.....reposting a still of Tang Yik over and over in an attempt to say I learned the rear hand grip wrong (despite being how my sifu teaches it....which implies that my Sifu, who is now Tang Yik's main representative, also learned it wrong).....you guys have such a sense of superiority that you can't even carry on a normal conversation with anyone that may have a little different perspective than yours. THAT'S why "it is difficult for us to talk." You turn everything into an argument. That has been proven over and over again!

[LFJ]

Completely denying the biomechanical explanations about the grips......nit-picking what you think you see in a video rather than believing my explanation.....

Hard to just believe what you say when your video shows something else, and knowing how the body works.

reposting a still of Tang Yik over and over in an attempt to say I learned the rear hand grip wrong (despite being how my sifu teaches it....which implies that my Sifu, who is now Tang Yik's main representative, also learned it wrong).....

It is undeniably different from the way you guys do it.

Maybe your Sifu changed the method to what he felt was more secure. Might be something for you to ask next time.

All I know is that TY performs it exactly like the YM method. He does the action numerous times on the two available clips, and does it the way I described every single time.

you guys have such a sense of superiority that you can't even carry on a normal conversation with anyone that may have a little different perspective than yours.

I would not feel qualified to comment on the rest of the TY pole system. I felt confident in this one action, though, because it is exactly the same as in the YM system I train.

Your perspective is different than mine on this because your pole thrust method differs from TY's. Otherwise we would be in agreement with just about everything in your video.

I'd be interested in anything further you have to share on the TY pole system. And you won't have to worry about anything from me, because most of the rest of it differs quite a bit from the YM system.

[guy b.]

Anyone know if there are any other teachers of Tang Yik pole around?

[LFJ]

Anyone know if there are any other teachers of Tang Yik pole around?

I think Michael Tang is the sole inheritor.

By the way, you've exceeded your stored PM quota. I have emailed you.