Ancestor of Shorin-ryu?

[Cataphract]

civilian martial art ban was very strict in Fujian, and most of the military were northerners garrisoned.

Sanchin and Zimen are quite universal though. There must have been some unifying principle before 1850. Otherwise there is no way to explain the obvious accordances. Take Hung Gar and Karate for example. Now what about that standard navy boxing? What became of it?

bubishi itself is a mish mash of random northern and southern techniques collected by some random guy, probably a gangster that paid a scribe to write it for him.

That would be cool. Besides books like the Bubishi were not uncommon. The Bubishi: Innovation, Tradition and the Southern Chinese Martial Arts

[bawang]

Sanchin and Zimen are quite universal though. There must have been some unifying principle before 1850. Otherwise there is no way to explain the obvious accordances. Take Hung Gar and Karate for example. Now what about that standard navy boxing? What became of it?

the unifying principle is san zhan. the navy boxing partially survives in the Zhou zihe lineage of tiger shape boxing. Zhou rearranged his entire system to avoid association with Japanese.

[rauljasso]

The Shorin label is from 20th century mostly for Anko Itosu's lineage. Sanchin was arguably discarded because it has much overlap with Seisan/Hangetsu. It was replaced with Naihanchi as first kata. Naihanchi is of Chinese origin and resembles certain crane forms. I think a strong southern Chinese influence is visible in Shorin Ryu, especially in the earlier iterations of the kata, e.g. Wansu, Kushanku, Unsu.

The Roots of Shotokan

Interestingly enough, the Okinawans used San Chin as part of a three form curricula, much like Wing Chun, Pak Mei, etc. Take for example Uechi Ryu (San Chin, Seisan, Sanseiryu) , perhaps a nod to their Chinese roots/methodology. Naihanchi , however , is quite the oddball, and hard to reconcile with the Chinese styles, Nathan Johnson attempts to do so in his book "Zen Shaolin Karate" , citing even Prayin Mantis as it's origen! quite a stretch though, still no Lohan influence....

[Oolong]

Here is some lineage.

http://www.taipinginstitute.com/cour...nan/luohanquan

But whether there really is a connection to Henan? Who knows? I don't.


History of Hakka Martial Art and its relationship to Southern Chinese and Shaolin martial arts

Good info, thanks

it corresponds with the period of commercialization, where new styles of more confusing convoluted and form heavy kung fu were created in order to milk people to make money. Cantonese kung fu took this a step further, but white crane was the beginning

I dunno, fut gar looks pretty badass. Isn't that really just Luohan quan in a shiny spandex suit?

*sits back in lawn chair, cracks a hard lemonade and watches as thread dies*

[Cataphract]

Shushiwa aka Zhou Zi He learned from Zhou Bei who likely got his martial art from Chow Ah Naam according to http://www.pangai-noon.net/Bloodline.html
Pangai Noon thus stems from Chow Gar, the Choi fighting system. (And so does Fut Gar via Leung Tin Jiu.) It would make sense that Kojo Kaho passed his unhappy student Uechi to a distant cousin Shushiwa.

Could that navy boxing be labeled southern Tai Tzu?
(Btw. is Tiger Shape related to Tiger Respecting Fist?)

During the invasion and takeover of north China by the Jurchin, the Song Dynasty fled to the south of China, where the Southern Song was established. The royal Zhao family and all their relatives moved south by boat. In the southern coastal province of Zhejiang there can be found a style called Chang Quan there that developed from fighting on boats. Perhaps it is the transition between Northern Tai Tzu Quan and Southern Tai Tzu Quan.

Southern Styles During the Qing Dynasty (2)

But, the similarities between Hakka Kuen and the local martial arts of Fujian and Guangdong strongly suggests that they are related in some way. Also, the style of Southern Tai Tzu Quan appears very similar as well to both Hakka Kuen and local Fujian and Guangdong martial arts. [...]

Until relatively modern times, Southern Praying Mantis was taught exclusively to Hakka. In fact, the general public of the Pearl River Delta referred to Southern Praying Mantis as "Hakka Kuen”. Supposedly the Chow / Chu / Zhou royal (Ming) family practiced this art and it was taught only to the Hakka after the royals arrived in the south.

There also exists the Hakka “Chu Gar Fu Zhuang” or “Chu Gar Tiger Boxing”. Also, there is the Phoenix Eye Fist style. [...] Pangai-Noon developed in a Shaolin temple in the Fujien province. It is a combination of many different arts considered effective. Some of the contributions include the Phoenix Eye Fist, Crane stance and strikes, as well as Chu Gar mantis techniques.

History of Hakka Martial Art and its relationship to Southern Chinese and Shaolin martial arts

Incidently Gichin Funakoshi features pheonix eye fist in his books since Tō-te Ryūkyū Kenpō (1922).
I'll leave this semi-related Fut Gar video here. Looks sort of like Karate Bunkai to me.

[Oolong]

Back in the dinosaur So. Shaolin days. I remember learning the prayer-hands thing where one palm shoots forward as the other retracts, brushing each other as they pass. sifu said it was like striking cymbals. Obvious application is a parry & bridge. Idk, it reminded me of the prayer hands in Luohan.

There's a 10% chance that might have been yau kung moon tho

[Cataphract]

Yeah, dispatch the monkey.

It seems to be based on white crane, whereas the latter has more of a recognizable Shaolin structure.

Do you mean this?

One of the more informative sets of distinctions to be made is between the “Hung Mun” and the “Hakka” styles.[...]
Typical examples of the Hung Mun schools that are popular today include Choy Li Fut and Hung Gar.[...]
The Hakka communities tended to be concentrated along the eastern branch of the Pearl River. Their arts often displayed triangular footwork, characteristically hunched shoulders and concave chests, complex hands and a general resemblance to the styles of Fujian province. While historians debate about the form and origins of the ancient Hakka styles, the modern schools that one might encounter today include Bak Mei, Dragon, Southern Mantis and Chuka Shaolin.

Wing Chun and the Hakka Arts: Is there a connection?

[Oolong]

Yeah, dispatch the monkey.


Do you mean this?

There you go. That is the distinction I was trying to make.

The Hakka styles, mantis, etc always reminded me a lot of the Silat I've seen with regards to Triangle structure and centerline

[bawang]

Shushiwa aka Zhou Zi He learned from Zhou Bei who likely got his martial art from Chow Ah Naam according to http://www.pangai-noon.net/Bloodline.html
Pangai Noon thus stems from Chow Gar, the Choi fighting system. (And so does Fut Gar via Leung Tin Jiu.) It would make sense that Kojo Kaho passed his unhappy student Uechi to a distant cousin Shushiwa.

Could that navy boxing be labeled southern Tai Tzu?
(Btw. is Tiger Shape related to Tiger Respecting Fist?)

chow gar taizu is all irrelevant. to find out karate history u need to look at the facts.

ming government needed more shock troops so set up minor shrines and Quanzhou temple to train more. qing government wanted to shut them down, henan temple agreed.

military sets had no names and were more static. gangster sets were constantly changing and improvised. in late 1800s gangster sets began to be codified under the banner of southern shaolin.

in fujian county records zhou zihe was recorded to have had a very close Japanese friend.

kanbun was 19 and Zhou zihe was 23.

kanbun learned almost identical system to goju line naha te except with more grabbing. kanbun did not know anyone from goju line.

kanbun strictly learned from zhou it was not two way. zhou family has form 36.

Zhou zihe was obsessed about learning tiger boxing and some point in his life found southern shaolin masters to teach him tiger boxing.

Zhou zihe line 36 begins identical to kanbun 36 and starts deviating halfway.

Zhou zihe family denied teaching kanbun to tomoyose's 1981 fact finding mission.

1897 was around the time the boxer rebellion inspired an explosion of countless new kung fu styles and anti foreigner sentiment.

in ww2 occupation there were attempts to open karate dojos in china.


any conclusions made based on these facts are all possible.

[Cataphract]

Uechi Kanbun is often listed as one of Aragaki's students, though I can find no clue how that happened.
He was at Kojo's Dojo in Fouzhou 20 years after Higashionna Kanryo where Wai Xinxian was teaching. Uechi arguably had some exposure to preliminary Goju.

Sakugawa met Kushanku 1756, Yara Chatan travelled to Fujian in 1772. I would place the beginning of Chinese Boxing in the Shuri tradition outside the Chinese community Kumemura to that period, over 100 years before Uechi and Zhou Zihe.

Kushanku was basically bodyguard to the Qing embassador and probably a military man. If he taught techniques rather than forms that would explain the differences in Sakugawa's and Yara's versions of the Kushanku Kata. Now what would that entail during the reign of emporer Qianlong? Also, Sakugawa, Matsumora and Aragaki studied abroad. Shorin Ryu was formed before Uechi was born.

[Cataphract]

Kojo Ryu - Shingo Hayashi
Tenkan, Kukan and Chikan were invented by Kojo Kaho (1849-1925) in Fouzhou. White Dragon, White Tiger and White Crane represent the Kojo family system from Kumemura.

[Kevin73]

kanbun strictly learned from zhou it was not two way. zhou family has form 36.

Zhou zihe line 36 begins identical to kanbun 36 and starts deviating halfway.

Zhou zihe family denied teaching kanbun to tomoyose's 1981 fact finding mission.




any conclusions made based on these facts are all possible.

In your opinion, why did the Zhou zihe family deny teaching Kanbun? IYO, how did Kanbun learn what he brought back? I know you just posted all of the known facts, just curious as to your opinions on it.

I know there is also speculation that the system Kanbun learned did NOT have the 108 steps form (Suparenpei) that Goju has. Others have speculated that he left before learning the form. Does the Zhou zihe family have a 108 line form/set?

[bawang]

In your opinion, why did the Zhou zihe family deny teaching Kanbun? IYO, how did Kanbun learn what he brought back? I know you just posted all of the known facts, just curious as to your opinions on it.

I know there is also speculation that the system Kanbun learned did NOT have the 108 steps form (Suparenpei) that Goju has. Others have speculated that he left before learning the form. Does the Zhou zihe family have a 108 line form/set?

Zhou family denied because in the second world war imperial japan tried to promote karate in china just like in korea and taiwan.

the crane people that try to attract karate visitors just want to make money. liu liu ge basically ditched the entire system that he taught to goju people cuz he thought crane was superior.

Zhou family does have a 108 but it is not related to goju 108. it is two forms called 60 and 48 combined together and its of southern gangster origin.

[Cataphract]

The king's son carries the title "O si (Wang-tsu)", that is the royal prince.

Aperçu général des trois royaumes
Wang-tsu sounds familiar.

Kushanku was basically bodyguard to the Qing embassador and probably a military man.

Quan Kui 全魁 and Chou Huang https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/周煌 sailed to Ryukyu in 1757 for the inauguration of king Sho Boku with an entourage of 300-800 people. Kushanku was Quan Kui's title. Whoever Quan Kui was, I don't believe he himself taught the local youths his art of beating people up. So who was it he brought with him? Local sailors from Fouzhou? Private security? Garrisoned Green Banner men? If it was the last, I heard that commanders relied on local instructors for training their troops.

The diplomatic last mission had happened 1719 and the next followed in 1800, so it is safe to assume it was that mission.

[Oolong]

I just want to know where that "side cannon" technique came from, or whatever the thing is called, double punch to the side that you see in Naihanchi/Tekki. Stretching the Bow perhaps? Also, there is a sequence in Taizu Chang Quan after the cloud hands where you do a wardoff to the side. Any connection, or was it their own