Ancestor of Shorin-ryu?

[rauljasso]

May I suggest a book titled "Shotokan's Secret" by Dr. Bruce Clayton ? In my opinion , one of the most thorough analysis of the Chinese influence on Okinawan karate and the development of Shorin styles and their descendants , particularly Shotokan. Good read! Saludos!

[bawang]

as far as I heard the Fujian tiger shape boxing guys who shared form with naha te guys removed or rearranged all of their material after japan went to war with china multiple times. they are the latest guys around ww2. the white crane guys did it earlier in 1890s but for marketing to make money.

karate oral history is actually very helpful for history research and fact checking because they showed white crane and other Fujian kung fu styles were created very late in history and very quickly. it corresponds with the period of commercialization, where new styles of more confusing convoluted and form heavy kung fu were created in order to milk people to make money. Cantonese kung fu took this a step further, but white crane was the beginning.

Okinawan karate is 100% Chinese. barehand material in Japanese kobudo is mostly non Chinese.

[Cataphract]

Speaking of Naha Te, Higashionna Kanryo learned Luohan Quan and Xingyi Quan from Iwah and Wai Xinxian at the Kojo Dojo and Crane from one Ryu Ryu Ko (Xie Zhong Xiang). The Kojo family played a role in Naha and Shuri Te. The distinction between Shuri, Tomari and Naha Te is not that clear at all.
Another central person is Aragaki Seisho who practiced Luohan Quan and taught almost all the greats: Funakoshi, Mabuni, Kyan, Uechi, ...

I have two questions for some time now.
1. Xingyi Quan pops up time and again. Was it present in Fujian during the late Qing era?
2. Kojo or rather Koshiro Chinese family name is Cai according to this. Could there be a connection to the Cai family style? The article says Kojo Oyakata studied martial arts at emporer Kangxi's court. What style would that be?

(Looks like the Zhu/Choi/Cai were generally quite busy in Fujian.)

[Oolong]

Couple questions of my own...

Is the Fujian Luohan referenced here of any relation to the 18 Lohan southern system? It seems to be based on white crane, whereas the latter has more of a recognizable Shaolin structure. Did they both come from the original Northern 18 Hands? And was Abbott Gee Sim the one who brought it down south, and made changes?

Here is an example what I'm referring to:
https://youtu.be/u3o3BGFbSvA


*Fujian was kind of the "emergency" temple, the one they fled to when the main one got burned so I can see the need for faster, more abridged methods of training. I am more concerned with the orthodox (horse-based) Shaolin stuff though.

[bawang]

no okinawan guy ever studied xingyi or luohan that's bullsh1t. and what the fuk is "orthodox" horse base shaolin. you sound mentally ill.

[Cataphract]

no okinawan guy ever studied xingyi or luohan that's bullsh1t. and what the fuk is "orthodox" horse base shaolin. you sound mentally ill.

Thanks for your insightful and nuanced input.

You said yourself that "Okinawan Karate is 100% Chinese". Then what did they learn in Fouzhou?

Students would often study with multiple teachers learning several martial arts. In turn they might hand on the individual styles or synthesise what they know into an eclectic teaching. Wai Shin Zan could have been teaching a composite style of Peho (Fukien White Crane), Lohan (Monk Boxing) and Tat Chun(Tamo iron body).It has been suggested that Wai Shin Zan may have been a teacher of Five Ancestors which was founded on Peho, Lohan, Kao Kun (monkey boxing), Tai Cho (great ancestor boxing), and Tat Chun (Tamo iron body)

Origins of Kanryo Higashionna's Naha Te

Okinawa karate-do was never a unified system, and kata and training methods entered freely from China to Okinawa, to be passed on from one teacher to the next, and subsequently modified. As martial arts researcher Patrick McCarthy (1999b, p. 7) has stated, "With the exception of the Kojo (Cai) family, this writer knows of no other style in Okinawa, which perpetuates a pure Fujian-based lineage tradition in its entirety. Most, if not all styles represent generations of eclectic synthesis, continuous reinterpretation and profuse influence by Japanese."6 (McCarthy, 1999b, p. 7.)

Okinawa Kata Classification - An Historical Overview

Richard Kim writes Chatan Yara (1668–1756) studied Xingyi Quan under Wong Chung-Yoh in Fouzhou.

[rauljasso]

Regarding the presence of Hsing-I on the Okinawan islands , there is a reference to the art in George Mattson's "The Way of Karate" , it is a story related to him by his master K. Uechi as told by his father, so knowledge of the art is possible, but only post 1900. Generally speaking , the Naha styles are the one with major Chinese influence, i.e. Goju, Uechi, etc. The Shuri styles from which Shorin-ryu was derived , discarded the Chinese forms and training methods, i.e. San-chin, body hardening , etc. The Shorin moniker seems to be a marketing ploy, since Shorin is the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin, and masters seem to have used it to attract students . No Shorin kata bears any resemblance to a N. Shaolin form, they are all the creation of Matsumura, Itosu, and Funakoshi thru various periods of development and revision.

[Cataphract]

he Shuri styles from which Shorin-ryu was derived , discarded the Chinese forms and training methods, i.e. San-chin, body hardening , etc. The Shorin moniker seems to be a marketing ploy, since Shorin is the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin, and masters seem to have used it to attract students . No Shorin kata bears any resemblance to a N. Shaolin form, they are all the creation of Matsumura, Itosu, and Funakoshi thru various periods of development and revision.

The Shorin label is from 20th century mostly for Anko Itosu's lineage. Sanchin was arguably discarded because it has much overlap with Seisan/Hangetsu. It was replaced with Naihanchi as first kata. Naihanchi is of Chinese origin and resembles certain crane forms. I think a strong southern Chinese influence is visible in Shorin Ryu, especially in the earlier iterations of the kata, e.g. Wansu, Kushanku, Unsu.

The Roots of Shotokan

[bawang]

Thanks for your insightful and nuanced input.

You said yourself that "Okinawan Karate is 100% Chinese". Then what did they learn in Fouzhou?

they learned a standard navy boxing set that was practiced in the entire province. white crane and luohan didn't exist yet.

[Cataphract]

they learned a standard navy boxing set that was practiced in the entire province. white crane and luohan didn't exist yet.

That would make some sense. There are lots of stories about cast away sailors and some military people like Kusanku and Iwah. If that navy set was so common it must still be documented in some form, ideally matching the 48 techniques in the bubishi with their specific names, e.g. Mt.Tai crushes egg, using cymbals, Arhat turns his body ...

Prior to Okinawa being established as an independent prefecture in 1879, Tomari had served as the second largest deep-water port on the island. Often trading boats from both China and Korea were found washed ashore in Tomari. In fact, so often was this the case that local officials in Tomari were ordered by the King himself to erect special quarters for the victims of such incidents in an effort to accommodate them during their indefinite visit.

TOMARI-TE: THE PLACE OF THE OLD TODE

But Okinawan visits to Fujian span quite some time, with heir Chinese hosts being well connected.
Sakugawa Kanga (1733-1815), Chatan Yara (1760-1812), Kosaku Matsumora (1829-1898), Aragaki Seisho (1840-1918), Higashionna Kanryo (1853-1915)
All of them learning the same stuff without any substantial trace of it in the oral tradition seems unlikely.

[Oolong]

18 Lohans? Going once... going twice....

[bawang]

18 lohans? Going once... Going twice....

faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake

[bawang]

That would make some sense. There are lots of stories about cast away sailors and some military people like Kusanku and Iwah. If that navy set was so common it must still be documented in some form, ideally matching the 48 techniques in the bubishi with their specific names, e.g. Mt.Tai crushes egg, using cymbals, Arhat turns his body ...

civilian martial art ban was very strict in Fujian, and most of the military were northerners garrisoned. there was no respect for martial arts and nobody cared about the forms. military life was horrible, there was no spiritual hippy anus twitching from doing forms. after the ban lift in 1850 southern civilian martial artist main source of income was teaching forms, and that encouraged constantly making up new forms.

HOWEVER, tiger shape boxing still has 13 24 36 108 and the techniques are simply rearranged to distance themselves from japanese.

bubishi itself is a mish mash of random northern and southern techniques collected by some random guy, probably a gangster that paid a scribe to write it for him.

[Cataphract]

18 Lohans? Going once... going twice....

Here is some lineage.

In terms of Luohan Quan there are many differen styles and thus each with its own history. Some styles have created a history based on legends, others are short to only reach a few generations since their propagation whislt some even include religious lines of monks into their lineage. These will be outlined below to understand how Luohan Quan came to be in the Southeastern areas of China. [...]
Zhangzhou Luohan Quan is also known as Shiba Luohan Quan (十八罗汉拳, 18 Luohan Boxing), Fojia Quan (佛家拳, Buddha Family Boxing) and Hexiang Quan (和尚拳, Monk Boxing).

http://www.taipinginstitute.com/cour...nan/luohanquan

But whether there really is a connection to Henan? Who knows? I don't.

“Fujian History” says that by the end of the Tang Dynasty, Buddhism has been evolved into 5 groups: Yang Zong, Caodong Zong, Yunmen Zong, Linji Zong, Fayan Zong. Most of them were founded by Fujianese. In other words, Chan Buddhism’s roots had moved to Southern China. Over time, the Putian and other temples developed their own Southern Shaolin based martial arts, complete with Qi and Nei Gong as well as self defense movements. During the passing centuries, these temple martial arts also interacted with the various waves of the Hakka people's migration from the north to the south of China.

History of Hakka Martial Art and its relationship to Southern Chinese and Shaolin martial arts

Southern Tai Zhu or Grand Ancestor Boxing - predates Fukien Crane in the Fujian area by hundreds of years, since it began during the Song dynasty. Southern Tai Zhu is very much San Zhan (3 Battles) based. In fact, it is the only style with 3 San Zhan forms, and its principles permeate the entire syllabus. It is thought to be the mother fist of most Fujian systems.

Southern Styles During the Qing Dynasty

[bawang]

southern gangsters liked to hide at Buddhist shrines and any kind of martial art from this is generally called luohan boxing. henan northern luohan boxing is in fact legit because although the form is done in modern times like a long fist form the techniques are southern.