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Thread: What makes KungFu unique?

  1. #1

    Wink What makes KungFu unique?

    I'm curious, what (if anything) makes KungFu unique? What is in your opinion the essence of KungFu?
    Why has it been disseminated world wide?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cataphract View Post
    I'm curious, what (if anything) makes KungFu unique? What is in your opinion the essence of KungFu?
    Why has it been disseminated world wide?
    Many different styles. People can train for various reasons.
    1) Self defense/ Martial Body Mechanics: learning kicks, throws, punches, take-downs, chin-na joint locks.
    2)Some may want to even do some amateur kickboxing or MMA (or spar with people of various styles. in other words testing the kung fu)
    3)learning the material of a style for it's own sake. for instance someone may want to learn all the material of a Cha Quan or Hua Quan style, 7 Star Praying Mantis, etc. That gets into the realm of forms training. That gets into the mindset of "this makes sense to me for what I choose as an exercise."
    4) It is an exercise regimen that can help in other areas and aspects of one's life- the practitioner should be more alert, heal faster, hard working etc. A little worn out after building a stone wall all day? Guess what: you have your kung fu training to correct that!
    5) Flexibility training
    6) Any one or all of the above.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Cataphract View Post
    I'm curious, what (if anything) makes KungFu unique? What is in your opinion the essence of KungFu?
    Why has it been disseminated world wide?
    My take would be what makes it unique is the specific elements of Chinese culture associated with it.

    It spread worldwide because of popular films and tv shows – successful cultural marketing – coupled with Asian immigration to the US and other countries.

    I can only guess what the essence of genuine Chinese kung fu is. My coach in China told me several times "You just don't understand Chinese Kung Fu". From things he and other real practitioners have said, perhaps it’s essentially about learning through a huge amount of repetitive practice; absorbing by osmosis through direct contact with a teacher and more advanced students; persevering through hardship while skill and craftsmanship slowly develop.
    Last edited by rett2; 03-01-2017 at 04:31 AM.

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    wombat combat is unique because you do not require hard bitter training to become a good fighter. you just have to wave your arms around.

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    It's unique in that there are very few who have grasped what it is, practice what it is and cultivate Kung Fu within themselves.

    Sure, there's loads of martial artists. Even loads of people who study, learn, practice Kung Fu.

    But still, it is of such merit and caliber that it is difficult at best to be a real Kung Fu man (person).

    As a person who has been practicing for decades, that's my perspective.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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    flapping arms/ empty "kung fu"

    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    wombat combat is unique because you do not require hard bitter training to become a good fighter. you just have to wave your arms around.
    A lot of American students do just that-- wave their arms around without the proper root or core body mechanics. The power does not come from the full body transfer in their case, they might as well be dancing. I am lucky that I started CMA with a legitimate Tai Chi teacher, who was a student, among other teachers, of GM Feng Zhi Qiang of the Chen style. My first push-hands class my legs felt that they went through the wringer (and as a long distance runner I knew that was the real thing), plus I started picking up applications from the silk-reeling and the form I was learning such as joint locks/ take-downs, which I have spontaneously applied while sparring (in other environments).

    When I trained LongFist. (I still train but am not in class, there is no longer a location in my area and transportation became an un-expected issue.) The material was great. Great training and great teachers. Proper stances, and good material- nice classic longfist forms. There was sparring too and plenty of partner work with bags. Things like Snake Turn-Overs/ etc. were also in the curriculum. But the problem was that it was up to each student how good they would be-- some weren't good at all yet they kept advancing right through the curriculum. Many other students were good and I did bond with. The Vietnamese students were usually pretty good at it. "Everyone is on their own journey at different levels" kind of a thing. The material was good and the teachers sincerely care about their school. But--

    I would rather retain core principles than learn many forms without the proper principles, the wombat combat wave your arms around (which I have seen first-hand). I still train forms, I have retained them (Ba Bu Lian Hua Quan, Shi Ba Shou aka Sher Ba Quan, Siu Se Lo, Bok Lin Fa, Bok Pai Quan, a Pao Quan set, as well as some weapons sets, etc.) but from my more strict principal-based Tai Chi experience, my standards of what proper kung fu mechanics is, is higher than some other people's. For example, there was a student at that school who recently opened up a school, a new branch of the school if you will. He offers Tai Chi yet in my opinion his Tai Chi is terrible- I have pushed hands with him and he has no skill in the art, he folds up like a chair, does not properly tuck his kua in, etc. I am glad that my Tai Chi teacher, when I trained with her (Aihan Kuhn) was low-key and did not attract many students yet her standards and skill level were excellent she was a Chinese doctor as well. In my longfist classes, some of the students had zero flexibility- they should be doing another style or something. Some could not do a full split after YEARS of training at the school, and splits as warm up exercises in just about every class- I could do splits in a matter of weeks and still can even though I am not currently taking lessons anywhere. Anyway, the school was a mixed bag of nuts as far as talent went. The Sifu's were great, some of the other student's were great and the material was great- I am not complaining I had a great experience and the material I learned I was able to make my own and excel at. For that I am grateful.

    But bawang's wombat-combat phenomenon does exist. There are many American student's who do not have proper kung fu body mechanics, they just wave their arms around, their forms are empty and lack-luster. Of course someone can go into some kung fu schools and laugh-- this is why. Many American student's have never trained under the tutelage of a highly skilled master, one that can transmit the knowledge from osmosis as rett2 has put it (above in this thread). As it stands right now I am grateful for my experience, I got some proper training and some proper skills. But I am probably better off right now at this moment, building my stone walls/enclosures/etc. and continuing to self-train, until eventually I may find another teacher. Whether it will be more TCMA, or an MMA gym I do not know-- nothing wrong in training both anyway. That is my 2 cents on the wave-your-arms-in-the-air phenomenon. I agree.

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    Funny question...

    First I was going to say it's all the cool weapons that make Kung Fu unique.

    Then I was going to say it's our cool threads.

    Then I thought it was our extensive film archive.

    But the truth for me personally is simpler than this: we got all the sword hotties.
    Gene Ching
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    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

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    Culture

    Another point to further drive home what I was talking about from my spiel above. Many American students may go to a more commercialized school and never understand the benefits that a small group of people have from a teacher with excellent standards. What is a commercialized school? If you have more than one location, teach kid's classes, student's must wear school uniforms (logos), and call people "sir" and "ma'am" when being addressed, have colored sash promotions, that is elements it is commercialized. The Longfist school I went to now has 3 locations, not too "commercialized" but is expanding let's say. The school in MA. that just opened up is opened up I have to wonder about. Like I said the student who opened the new school location (at least he has "sihing" status and not "sifu" status now in that school) offers Tai Chi but the last time I checked, his Tai Chi was terrible. He, and many student's from that school, do not even do the Tai Chi forms properly. His push hands is lousy too, the kind of guy I was able to fold up like a chair and push half way across the room. The Sifu of the main school in MA. at least, his Tai Chi is solid, or average. I wouldn't call it great or astounding but it is not bad. And there are some skilled student's in the Longfist curriculum there.

    I had trained with a small group that had splintered from the main school in MA. although I did train at the main location sometimes too. Our Sihing, who was also formerly a Hung Gar practitioner, was very stringent about standards. I lucked out there, and than later I did train under the main Sifu in MA., etc. Great people I get along with them. Don't get me wrong. But I would talk about my Tai Chi teacher, who was a Chinese doctor and master of the art. They knew who she was because the splinter group I trained with actually rented the floor space from her- I was already her student and than found out about the Longfist group that way. The student's said, "oh, if I want to train Tai Chi then I would want to learn from the Sifu in the main location." (the thought being here that he is more of a martial artist). Well I have pushed hands with that Sifu too, his skill was only average, in the same general realm as my own skill, and I was only a so-so (not that great!) student who had been training for a few years at the time. You see, the students figured that this lady, my Taiji teacher, was a Chinese doctor and that she must approach it strictly for health. At that time Dr. Aihan Kuhn's larger classes were mainly for health, the ones that attracted the bigger crowds, but her Chen style, push hands and sword classes drew only a few people, more dedicated to the art who I fell in with. Some of her teachers in China included GM Feng Zhi Qiang, one of the five top heads of the Chen style before he passed away, Prof. Li De Yin (vice chairman of the national martial arts committee, PRC), among other big names. And that is the problem with many American students-- they do not know enough about Chinese culture to know who is a good teacher/ etc. "Oh she is a doctor so it must all be health stuff." True on one level, but she has skill as a martial artist as well, in some respects greater than that of the Sifu's from the Longfist school. The Chin-Na and joint locks I learned from the Chen style and Push Hands classes from Dr. Kuhn are 10 times more practical and efficient than some of the Chin-Na I learned in the LongFist classes, although there are many good techniques from the Longfist as well.

    Also, the approach to training in both schools is different. A lot of the students, even the adult students, of the LongFist school will get "star struck" by new material the Sifu's show them. They will get giddy, etc. The low-key training at the Tai Chi school was much more down to earth, a much more mature and serious approach to training. In the long-fist school, after a sash promotion, the whole group may go out to eat at an Americanized Chinese restaurant. Reminds me of being 6 years old again and going to Chuck E. Cheeses for a birthday party. I would rather learn an authentic Chinese-inspired vegetarian dish that my Taiji Sifu, Aihan, had prepared. So there you go. A big spiel. I hope this makes sense to some people- again, I LIKED the longfist school, I trained hard and STILL train hard the material I learned, it is some good classic longfist forms and material some of which I outlined in my above post. But the art can get watered down- people can open a school and teach some of the arts, like simplified Yang Tai Chi and have no skill in it. That is too bad.
    Last edited by MarathonTmatt; 03-02-2017 at 10:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarathonTmatt View Post

    But bawang's wombat-combat phenomenon does exist. There are many American student's who do not have proper kung fu body mechanics, they just wave their arms around, their forms are empty and lack-luster. Of course someone can go into some kung fu schools and laugh-- this is why. Many American student's have never trained under the tutelage of a highly skilled master, one that can transmit the knowledge from osmosis as rett2 has put it (above in this thread). As it stands right now I am grateful for my experience, I got some proper training and some proper skills. But I am probably better off right now at this moment, building my stone walls/enclosures/etc. and continuing to self-train, until eventually I may find another teacher. Whether it will be more TCMA, or an MMA gym I do not know-- nothing wrong in training both anyway. That is my 2 cents on the wave-your-arms-in-the-air phenomenon. I agree.

    i have met 4 Chinese instructors who started teaching in the 80s were well meaning and skilled, and they all sooner or later attracted predators that learned as much as they can in a quick amount of time and left to open their own schools. 1 has now 0 students and was working in a Chinese restaurant, he might be dead now. numer 2 has 1 student left after 30 years. number 3 stopped teaching real deal in 1988 and developed a medium group of semi cultists who every few years pay him about 4k to go on trips to Tibet. single at 50 years old. number 4 heavily invested into scammer sh1t teaching and now has 100+ students.
    Last edited by bawang; 03-03-2017 at 08:16 PM.

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    One thing I've noticed that seems more prevalent in CMA than other MA categories is the tendency towards cliquishness. I've encountered a number of snooty kung fu people over the years. Not everyone in CMA, mind you, but more snooty people in general than I ever met in JMA, KMA, FMA, kickboxing, etc., combined. There's something about *certain* kung fu people that makes them think they're more special or elite than anyone else; that they're the only ones with the 'real secrets' and 'F' everybody else. I've encountered this type both in Taiwan and the States, but their attitudes make them all the same. And the most arrogant usually have mediocre ability at best. There's also a level of dishonesty about them. It's frickin' annoying.

    The fact is, I love kung fu, but I don't love all of the baggage that comes with it. But since I haven't attended any MA functions/gatherings in years, I haven't encountered that in a long time.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 03-03-2017 at 09:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
    The fact is, I love kung fu, but I don't love all of the baggage that comes with it. But since I haven't attended any MA functions/gatherings in years, I haven't encountered that in a long time.
    God bless. Hope I didn't come across as a snood. Maybe I shouldn't even bring these things up, after all, what for. Doesn't affect me in the long run. The Longfist school I trained in was more marketed. What Bawang would call a "hobby lobby." But if you have serious attitude towards the training, they will train you proper. There was a guy there who got a black sash who couldn't even do a split after years of training, and we train the splits as a warm up every class-- yet he showed up, payed his tuition and got promoted to black sash-- his sparring was no good either, etc. Its kind of like, "ok..." IMO there were enough students like that to be off-putting (at least at the main school location, the smaller splinter group I mainly trained with were more dedicated/ hard-working.) Also a lot of teenagers whose parents pay tuition, but the kids don't really know what it is, their horse stances always look "off" or not right, why is that so.

    On the other hand, one of the Sifu's daughter was an ICMAC forms champion for her Hua Quan. Good for her, she was cool, her whole family was great, I miss her dad, the Sifu, what a great and interesting guy.

    On the other hand again. The student that opened the new school location. I am serious that his Tai Chi is lousy. I am not saying I have the great Tai Chi secret and he doesn't; but his Tai Chi isn't good, he hyper-extends, doesn't shift/turn right, has no push hands skill, which makes me wonder why is he teaching it, (other than milking money for the school) because he is going to be teaching people wrong & that is no understatement. For instance my other teacher, the Tai Chi master from China, would probably scratch her head wondering what he is even trying to do if she saw this guy's Tai Chi. He would need to start all over again with the basics. Or I imagine she might say "oh, okay, I can see what's wrong" and try to help the poor fellow. Sorry but it is not snoody for me to say that this guy has poor/ low level Tai Chi. He is a smarter business person than I am perhaps.

  12. #12
    Just an opinion... seems like people with high standards often get called snooty by people with low standards. On the other hand, cultish orgs serving up woo and collective self-deception have all the snootiness without the high standards. A halfway healthy crápola radar usually makes it easy to sort out the difference. 2¢, ymmv

    for fun maybe test your radar on this...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUIX8mCX7vw
    Last edited by rett2; 03-04-2017 at 01:30 AM.

  13. #13
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    Matt:
    I wasn't referring to you as being snooty. You're OK with me.


    rett2:
    I'm talking about snooty people, not because their standards are higher, but because they practice X-lineage of X-style under X-teacher. Even if the teacher is not snooty him/herself. It's a weird type of insecure, passive-aggressive arrogance that seems unusually common among a percentage of kung fu people. Note that I didn't say ALL kung fu people. I've been in and around MA for awhile now, and have been around the block enough times. I know exactly the type I'm talking about. The arrogance I'm talking about is NOT the same type of 'confident arrogance' carried by many pro fighters, which is necessary for many fighters (to some degree) in their profession; nor is it the type of confident aloofness that some highly experienced MAists project.

    I have very high standards; for myself, and when I taught, for my students. But I also taught them to try to look for the positive they can take away by observing or interacting with others' MA, because you can learn a lot about yourself.
    Last edited by Jimbo; 03-04-2017 at 09:07 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rett2 View Post
    Just an opinion... seems like people with high standards often get called snooty by people with low standards. On the other hand, cultish orgs serving up woo and collective self-deception have all the snootiness without the high standards. A halfway healthy crápola radar usually makes it easy to sort out the difference. 2¢, ymmv

    for fun maybe test your radar on this...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUIX8mCX7vw
    What is that ? Proof of chemical reaction ?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    First I was going to say it's all the cool weapons that make Kung Fu unique.

    Then I was going to say it's our cool threads.

    Then I thought it was our extensive film archive.

    But the truth for me personally is simpler than this: we got all the sword hotties.
    LOL. I was going to say the people like Bawang. But according to another source in this thread. It is more common than I believed. So yeah, Sword Hotties.
    I like Japanese based system Sword Hotties and Rika Usami is totally hot.

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