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Thread: Central Line Bong Sau vs. Center Line Bong Sau

  1. #16
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    Hello,

    I think that the reality of todays world makes fighting more dangerous in many ways and often represents a lose-lose no matter what.
    In todays world you are likely to face multiple opponents and often a weapon. Also, even if you win you can be sued and still lose even if you were not the aggressor. When you consider that a person can break into your home and sue you if they injure themselves, fighting often offers similar potential issues.

    To me it seems the smarter avenue is to avoid confrontation when at all possible.

    Now as to making something work in a real situation; my opinion is that it is often not the technique or the skill of the person which is the determining factor but the mental aspect. Kind of like the old saying that "it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog".

    Many of us today may practice our art for recreation or part time, I highly doubt that most people are training with the expectation of needing to use their skills in real life. When I used to train Pekiti there were some really scary dudes and I told them if I thought I would be facing them on the street for real I would train differently. I did train for reality, at least I think I did, and have had one or two occasions to use what I trained as a Police Office and a Correctional Officer before that, but not as much as some people think.

    You want to know what helped me?? Being able to take a hit. I would say that is one of the biggest failings most martial artists have. It is also one reason that Boxers are so good at "fighting" they are used to taking punishment and working through that to continue onward.

    Much of what I do in Silat will not work if you do not apply it fully. No, I am not saying it is too dangerous for the street or that type of crap. What I am saying is that if you do not train to fully apply your techniques then they often will not work. The difference between applying a lock and taking someone to the ground and stopping halfway. Also, if you train halfway you will fight halfway. This does not mean you need to be hurting each other in training but you have to train to endure some pain.

    I know Phil and he has fought and trained some others to fight as well. I also do not do things the same way he does but he has found some viable approaches that work for him and those he has trained. I think that in person he may do things a little differently than in a demo.

    I think that if one trains to crowd your opponent while keeping structure you can make a lot of things work. Having said that, you will need to be able to take some punishment and keep on going if you opt to go that route. A lot of things can go wrong if your opponent knows what they are doing but if you can drive in and disrupt their balance and keep the pressure on...............................

    Of course it is easy to type something and say it can work and I understand the desire to validate theory with actual application. However, in many cases that actual application is not needed or desired and can result in criminal charges even when you act in self defense. Just throwing that out there for what it's worth.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    The problem is you haven't understood half of what I said. But, oh well.
    And I could say the exact same thing of you! At least I actually understand what Phil is doing in that video. Which you obviously don't by your comments.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    H
    I know Phil and he has fought and trained some others to fight as well. I also do not do things the same way he does but he has found some viable approaches that work for him and those he has trained. I think that in person he may do things a little differently than in a demo.

    .
    Good points Dave. And I really took Happy Tiger to mean sparring more than all-out kick ass fighting. But I could be wrong! But absolutely TWC, and Phil in particular, have trained guys that have done very well in sparring competitions. While some seem to want to criticize the footwork in TWC, it works in sparring situations! Not all Wing Chun lineages can claim the same successes. Keeping that distance that LFJ commented on is not a vulnerability when done correctly and can actually help avoid a shoot and takedown. Now some will argue that "sparring is not fighting." But as you pointed out, it's much better to avoid "real fights" and few of us training our marital arts are ever going to be in a "real fight". But sparring is something everyone could and should be doing. Its just rather surprising that some lineages of Wing Chun can talk all about how great they are and better than everyone else, while at the same time having very very little sparring footage out on the internet to actually show how effective they are.

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Tiger View Post
    no, no... That's​ totally cool. All I'm asking is pepper the science with ancidot. I read everything you guys write. It's always special when the information is shared with a tru life reference. Including fail. I like to fight. There's no shame in loosing a fight. We chunners are often not to keen on investing in combat lose. That, iny opinion is the main weakness of VT today. Unlike or ancestors who seemed to gleefully wade in to combat and win or loose there's something to share
    as a for instance. Bruce Lee had a love hate relationship with bong Sau. I'm one turn he would call it his secret weapon but if you actually study JKD it's plain that past the Seattle years bong sau..
    Complicated, sophiscated is almost,.Non existent in JKD
    "Wing Chun is a bell that appears when rung.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    And I could say the exact same thing of you! At least I actually understand what Phil is doing in that video. Which you obviously don't by your comments.
    Well, like most TWC guys, there is a large disconnect between what you all say you're doing, and what you're actually doing.

    It is very plain to see in the slow-mo gif I provided, that he's not circling around the opponent, but taking linear sidesteps away from him perpendicular to the his advances.

    He's not arriving at any blind side or superior position, and he's moving body mass in a separate direction from his punch.



    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Keeping that distance that LFJ commented on is not a vulnerability when done correctly and can actually help avoid a shoot and takedown.
    It may or may not be a vulnerability. Depends on the opponent. I think it has more cons than pros, though, and is quite open to a shoot and takedown, since he's moving backward in a parallel, duck footed stance while the opponent is closing in.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Well, like most TWC guys, there is a large disconnect between what you all say you're doing, and what you're actually doing.

    It is very plain to see in the slow-mo gif I provided, that he's not circling around the opponent, but taking linear sidesteps away from him perpendicular to the his advances.

    He's not arriving at any blind side or superior position, and he's moving body mass in a separate direction from his punch.





    It may or may not be a vulnerability. Depends on the opponent. I think it has more cons than pros, though, and is quite open to a shoot and takedown, since he's moving backward in a parallel, duck footed stance while the opponent is closing in.
    Wow! You are working so hard at arguing with me and what's in that video that you can't even see your own markings accurately! Geez!

    When Phil does his Bong his lead foot is well behind your red/green cross-hatch. When he does his punch his lead foot is in front of that red/green cross-hatch. As I said. Both his feet are on the perimeter of a circle, with the opponent standing near the center of that circle. He is not taking linear sidesteps. He is stepping along the perimeter of the circle as your own illustration clearly shows. When he makes the second part of the step after the Bong, his hips are moving forward with the punch as his body mass moves around the perimeter of the circle. Again, just look at your own illustration. When starts his Bong his lead hip is at your back green line. When he does his punch his rear hip is clearly closer to your front green line. Nice illustration. Is supports what I have been saying. You are just working hard to deny what is actually happening in the video just for the sake of arguing.

    And I would like to point out the NUMEROUS times people have commented on things they see in Phillip Bayer's videos, to which you have replied things like "you don't study the system so you don't know what you are looking at", and "you don't know WSLVT, so you cannot comment on what is going on in the video", and "you aren't seeing what's really happening in the video".....I'm paraphrasing, of course.
    Last edited by KPM; 03-22-2017 at 03:21 AM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Well, like most TWC guys, there is a large disconnect between what you all say you're doing, and what you're actually doing.

    It is very plain to see in the slow-mo gif I provided, that he's not circling around the opponent, but taking linear sidesteps away from him perpendicular to the his advances.

    He's not arriving at any blind side or superior position, and he's moving body mass in a separate direction from his punch.





    It may or may not be a vulnerability. Depends on the opponent. I think it has more cons than pros, though, and is quite open to a shoot and takedown, since he's moving backward in a parallel, duck footed stance while the opponent is closing in.
    Looks ok to me, hes made an angle and his rear hand is ready to go, albeit with a step in close the range....... the TWC guys fight at a longer range than most of WC styles.... hes just doing his thing

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    When Phil does his Bong his lead foot is well behind your red/green cross-hatch. When he does his punch his lead foot is in front of that red/green cross-hatch.
    Precisely because he sidestepped across the incoming red attack line.

    Both his feet are on the perimeter of a circle, with the opponent standing near the center of that circle. He is not taking linear sidesteps.
    The green lines mark the paths his feet take. They are not circular. They are straight out to the side, perpendicular to the opponent's line of attack.

    When he makes the second part of the step after the Bong, his hips are moving forward with the punch as his body mass moves around the perimeter of the circle.
    He adjusts facing ever so slightly, because he has stepped away and wouldn't be able to reach anymore otherwise.

    But his steps and body mass are going perpendicularly away from the target, not around a circle.

    When starts his Bong his lead hip is at your back green line. When he does his punch his rear hip is clearly closer to your front green line.
    WTF? No, it's not.

    I should have extended the lines further, or added another for his hips, so your brain could handle it.

    His feet are stepping directly sideward along those lines. His hips and spine are going where his feet take him.

    He is not moving forward toward the opponent at all, nor around a circle.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Looks ok to me, hes made an angle and his rear hand is ready to go, albeit with a step in close the range....... the TWC guys fight at a longer range than most of WC styles.... hes just doing his thing
    Exactly. The thing is not what they say it is, though.

    They always claim to be stepping forward on an angle while closing distance, but videos show they usually step sideways away from the opponent and drag their rear feet backward while maintaining distance.

    I don't doubt someone can make this work some time. I just don't prefer it, due to the flaws I've outlined.

  10. #25
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    I wasted almost 7 years on TWC , I cannot describe how much I regret that.

  11. #26

    Talking

    Hey, I never thought of that. I live in Canada. Possibly the last contry on earth were you can get into a hard fight without likely getting your head blown off...Here or maybe Russia.they seem to enjoy a good fight followed by comradary
    Last edited by Happy Tiger; 03-22-2017 at 07:02 AM.
    "Wing Chun is a bell that appears when rung.

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by zuti car View Post
    I wasted almost 7 years on TWC , I cannot describe how much I regret that.
    I'm sure it was no waste. If your house comes from Ip Man, he knew it before you. Master Ip Man had no hang ups what so ever in the use of wing chun. Breaks my heart when I think of all those babies being thrown out with the bath water ��
    Last edited by Happy Tiger; 03-22-2017 at 06:57 AM.
    "Wing Chun is a bell that appears when rung.

  13. #28
    This thread is all about 'truth is in the eye of the beholder' hahaha

  14. #29
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    At 0.53, he used a right Bong to deal with his opponent's right punch. That is wrong.
    http://johnswang.com

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    At 0.53, he used a right Bong to deal with his opponent's right punch. That is wrong.
    Looked to me like he was just doing that for the camera angle to show the "centerline" Bong.

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