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Thread: Central Line Bong Sau vs. Center Line Bong Sau

  1. #181
    I'm not trying to be that guy and I don't have sound at the moment so I could be missing something, but the way TWC uses Bong and Wu kind of bothers me. Wouldn't that be really easy to collapse? And wouldn't using pak sau accomplish the same thing?

    When might one want to use that technique as opposed to this:



    ?

    Not trying to stir stuff up, I promise.
    Last edited by Marnetmar; 04-10-2017 at 07:48 PM.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marnetmar View Post
    I'm not trying to be that guy and I don't have sound at the moment so I could be missing something, but the way TWC uses Bong and Wu kind of bothers me. Wouldn't that be really easy to collapse? And wouldn't using pak sau accomplish the same thing?

    When might one want to use that technique as opposed to this:



    ?

    Not trying to stir stuff up, I promise.
    Just let people do whatever they like ...

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marnetmar View Post
    I'm not trying to be that guy and I don't have sound at the moment so I could be missing something, but the way TWC uses Bong and Wu kind of bothers me. Wouldn't that be really easy to collapse? And wouldn't using pak sau accomplish the same thing?

    When might one want to use that technique as opposed to this:

    .
    I think distance is a factor. In the clip that started this thread Phil is standing a bit further away from his partner. Another factor is the starting angle with the opponent. If his punch is essentially crossing your bridge (coming from more of an outside angle) then it makes sense to Bong. If his punch is coming nice and straight down the center and your guard is already a bit wide, then it makes more sense to use a Pak Sau.

    I also think that the Bong/Wu aligned on the central-line rather than center-line as Phil is showing in the original clip is actually a bit more structurally strong and less likely to collapse. The rotator cuff muscles can work more efficiently to stabilize the shoulder from that angle compared to having the elbow closer to the center-line. Also, being right in front of the opponent may leave you "meeting force" more directly which is also more likely to collapse the Bong compared to stepping off of the line as Phil is doing in both clips so that the Bong is truly more of a deflecting action.

    Now could Phil have used the Pak Sau or the Cheun Sau in that first clip as you suggest? I think so! Always good to have multiple options available!

    That clip you shared is another good example of the "flanking strategy" in TWC. Too bad we can't see his footwork!
    Last edited by KPM; 04-11-2017 at 03:54 AM.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    I think distance is a factor. In the clip that started this thread Phil is standing a bit further away from his partner.
    All the more reason to not need bong-sau as a first response.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    All the more reason to not need bong-sau as a first response.
    Your hands are low, the opponent is closing in, and his angle of attack is essentially crossing your bridge....that much at least can justify Bong as a first response in my opinion.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Your hands are low, the opponent is closing in, and his angle of attack is essentially crossing your bridge....that much at least can justify Bong as a first response in my opinion.
    That doesn't describe the situation in the original video.

  7. #187
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    Hello,

    To my way of thinking Bong is not a move which you present, rather Bong is the shape which is the result of the incoming energy from the opponent.

    I was always taught to accept what the opponent gives me and to form a response based on that.
    The only time I would try to present or go with a specific movement would be if I were going to crash or try to overwhelm my opponent. Although, using that methodology I would probably use Silat to attack.
    Peace,

    Dave

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    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hello,

    To my way of thinking Bong is not a move which you present, rather Bong is the shape which is the result of the incoming energy from the opponent.
    .
    Ah! But then the question becomes.....does the "incoming energy" have to be actual physical contact, or can that energy already be influencing your response prior to contact?

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Ah! But then the question becomes.....does the "incoming energy" have to be actual physical contact, or can that energy already be influencing your response prior to contact?
    To form a technique, which is physical, then the action must be physical contact.
    This is one of the main reasons to practice Chi Sau as it trains one to be sensitive and react to the energy given.
    If you form movements/shapes without contact then you can be faked out and also could result in chasing hands.

    There are indeed mental aspects of any conflict. A truly gifted fighter can influence the mind of his opponent and perhaps get them to react in a certain way. However, the actual physical response should be a result of actual physical contact, imho.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    To form a technique, which is physical, then the action must be physical contact.
    This is one of the main reasons to practice Chi Sau as it trains one to be sensitive and react to the energy given.
    If you form movements/shapes without contact then you can be faked out and also could result in chasing hands.

    .
    In TWC there is a "pre-contact" phase. This is the "reading the opponent" part or even the "setting up the opponent" part. I agree with what you are saying as applying in a self-defense situation where you are surprised by an attack. But if you are "squared off" with someone and an exchange is inevitable, I think there is room to read what the opponent is doing and respond before any contact is made. Boxers and kickboxers do this all the time. For instance, you have time to see a wide loopy blow coming and so you respond with a Biu before any contact is made. Or you see a very straight punch coming up the center and you respond with a Pak before any contact is made. And in both cases you might already be using specific footwork as part of the response. So IMHO, I think one can be sensing and reading the energy from an opponent prior to any contact.

    I think this idea of Chi Sau teaching everything, and not responding until contact is made, is one of the reasons that Wing Chun is sometimes criticized as having no "long-range or outside game."
    Last edited by KPM; 04-11-2017 at 11:05 AM.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    In TWC there is a "pre-contact" phase. This is the "reading the opponent" part or even the "setting up the opponent" part. I agree with what you are saying as applying in a self-defense situation where you are surprised by an attack. But if you are "squared off" with someone and an exchange is inevitable, I think there is room to read what the opponent is doing and respond before any contact is made. Boxers and kickboxers do this all the time. For instance, you have time to see a wide loopy blow coming and so you respond with a Biu before any contact is made. Or you see a very straight punch coming up the center and you respond with a Pak before any contact is made. And in both cases you might already be using specific footwork as part of the response. So IMHO, I think one can be sensing and reading the energy from an opponent prior to any contact.

    I think this idea of Chi Sau teaching everything, and not responding until contact is made, is one of the reasons that Wing Chun is sometimes criticized as having no "long-range or outside game."
    I never said Chi Sau teaches everything, it helps to train attributes which can be useful in fighting. However, Chi Sau is not fighting and is not even needed to be a good fighter.

    I think that the idea of pre contact is valid, however trying to set up your response to what you believe the opponent will do can be a dangerous game.
    In Silat we will often mirror our opponent in training and we will utilize various fakes to draw them out. However, once contact is made it is a different story.

    To me, it does not matter what the opponent does as they have to enter one of my gates in order to attack.
    If you position yourself properly then you minimize the avenues open to attack and thus limit what the opponent can actually do.
    Think of a military tactic where you funnel the enemy and make them attack in a certain way and place. This is what the proper presentation of the Wu and Man and stance will accomplish. It will help to limit how the opponent can reach you.
    Of course, nothing is perfect and a skilled fighter can draw one out.

    Keep in mind that for your opponent to harm you they have to get to you. To do this they have to enter one of your gates.
    So, whether you respond with a Pak, Bong or whatever will depend on what is presented, after your gate is entered. If you train to respond prior to your gate being breached then, imo, you could fall into the trap of chasing hands.

    As to a wide looping blow coming in, my preferred response would be to move in and hit the opponent and not worry so much about the looping incoming blow. Same with jamming a kick, by moving in and attacking you not only will often nuetralize the attack but also harm the attacker.

    I remember once asking Leung Ting the best way to deal with one of my Pekiti Tirsia training partners. His response was "no worry just hit them in the nose". If you train to attack and drive forward you may find you can beat even those more "technically" skilled than yourself.

    Of course, this is just my opinion based on my training and experiences. Does not mean it is right for anyone or everyone else.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  12. #192
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    I never said Chi Sau teaches everything, it helps to train attributes which can be useful in fighting. However, Chi Sau is not fighting and is not even needed to be a good fighter.

    ---Didn't mean to imply that you did! But we do find this attitude in too many schools that seem to only train Chi Sau and forms.


    I think that the idea of pre contact is valid, however trying to set up your response to what you believe the opponent will do can be a dangerous game.
    In Silat we will often mirror our opponent in training and we will utilize various fakes to draw them out. However, once contact is made it is a different story.


    ---Why wouldn't the same apply to Wing Chun?


    To me, it does not matter what the opponent does as they have to enter one of my gates in order to attack.
    If you position yourself properly then you minimize the avenues open to attack and thus limit what the opponent can actually do.


    --And I would posit that this is part of reading the opponent's energy or intention prior to any contact.




    So, whether you respond with a Pak, Bong or whatever will depend on what is presented, after your gate is entered. If you train to respond prior to your gate being breached then, imo, you could fall into the trap of chasing hands.

    ---I don't necessarily agree with that. It is a possibility, but not one that good training can't overcome. And rather than standing and waiting for the opponent to enter one of your gates, you can moving and to some extent dictate what gate he enters. You might read his energy or intent in the pre-contact phase and adjust your position to make it more favorable for you given what you sense is about to come at you! Or you might use it to draw a specific response that will be easier for you to deal with. But I think this is pretty much what you are saying above, but maybe limiting it to your Silat? I'm just saying that this fits the idea of responding or reacting before contact is made.


    As to a wide looping blow coming in, my preferred response would be to move in and hit the opponent and not worry so much about the looping incoming blow. Same with jamming a kick, by moving in and attacking you not only will often nuetralize the attack but also harm the attacker.

    ---Nothing wrong with that. I'd probably do the same, but still use the Biu to cover as insurance. But again, are you not responding to what you see coming prior to any contact?

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    I never said Chi Sau teaches everything, it helps to train attributes which can be useful in fighting. However, Chi Sau is not fighting and is not even needed to be a good fighter.

    ---Didn't mean to imply that you did! But we do find this attitude in too many schools that seem to only train Chi Sau and forms.


    I think that the idea of pre contact is valid, however trying to set up your response to what you believe the opponent will do can be a dangerous game.
    In Silat we will often mirror our opponent in training and we will utilize various fakes to draw them out. However, once contact is made it is a different story.


    ---Why wouldn't the same apply to Wing Chun?

    Certainly can be applied using Wing Chun. I always liked using a Bic Bo to step deeply into my opponent and drive them back disrupting their structure. I just like Silat and using multiple lines, upper and lower


    To me, it does not matter what the opponent does as they have to enter one of my gates in order to attack.
    If you position yourself properly then you minimize the avenues open to attack and thus limit what the opponent can actually do.


    --And I would posit that this is part of reading the opponent's energy or intention prior to any contact.

    Perhaps, but to me it does not matter what the opponent does prior to contact. It is only after contact that I care what the opponent does. You can dance around me all day and unless I choose to attack you first my response will only be decided upon contact.



    So, whether you respond with a Pak, Bong or whatever will depend on what is presented, after your gate is entered. If you train to respond prior to your gate being breached then, imo, you could fall into the trap of chasing hands.

    ---I don't necessarily agree with that. It is a possibility, but not one that good training can't overcome. And rather than standing and waiting for the opponent to enter one of your gates, you can moving and to some extent dictate what gate he enters. You might read his energy or intent in the pre-contact phase and adjust your position to make it more favorable for you given what you sense is about to come at you! Or you might use it to draw a specific response that will be easier for you to deal with. But I think this is pretty much what you are saying above, but maybe limiting it to your Silat? I'm just saying that this fits the idea of responding or reacting before contact is made.

    But by presenting a strong posture you are limiting the options of entering any gate. In essence you force them to attack in a certain way. Going back to very basic gate theory: With a right Man Sau and Left Wu sau; The opponent has to cros your arms to attack your center and with proper facing/shifting or stance turning, you can force them to enter. If the opponent comes from the outside of your front arm, depending on the energy presented you could react with a Tuan or Bong. If the attack is to the inside or palm side you can use any of the Fook seeds. If the attack is outside the shoulders then it does not matter as he cannot make contact until he enters your space. If you use proper facing then it does not matter if he attacks with a hook, etc as your positioning will provide protection. Of course this relies on you using proper facing so it is not perfect. As I have said before, it is the person and their level of skill which dictates success or failure more than the particular system. Although, some systems provide a better framework than others.



    As to a wide looping blow coming in, my preferred response would be to move in and hit the opponent and not worry so much about the looping incoming blow. Same with jamming a kick, by moving in and attacking you not only will often nuetralize the attack but also harm the attacker.

    ---Nothing wrong with that. I'd probably do the same, but still use the Biu to cover as insurance. But again, are you not responding to what you see coming prior to any contact?

    The problem with trying to respond prior to contact is that you really don't know anything. How strong is the attack for example? My approach is to utilize body position and facing to minimize the need to try and anticipate what the opponent is going to do. If they enter my space and attack they need to cross one of my gates. In doing so they make contact and that is what makes my reaction, that contact.

    When I was going to the PA State Police Academy they trained boxing. One of my favorite things was to throw a punch which I wanted to be blocked or parried at the wrist area. Once that happened I would rotate my elbow and hit the opponent with a backfist. Now even though everyone knew what I was doing I was able to score just about every time. Mainly because they did not have the sensitivity to change the line once they punched or parried. Still, for this to work I needed to make contact as it was their energy in the block or parry that drove my elbow rotation. Had they blocked or parried in a different way my response would have been different due to the different energy presented.

    You can see this in demos where what looks like the same attack is responded to in different ways. It is the energy upon contact which drives the response. So without contact there is no real response only a shadow of what may be. (Wow that takes me back to those old Kung Fu episodes on TV)
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  14. #194
    Perhaps, but to me it does not matter what the opponent does prior to contact. It is only after contact that I care what the opponent does. You can dance around me all day and unless I choose to attack you first my response will only be decided upon contact.
    Your wing chun is based upon reacting to contact ?

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by guy b. View Post
    Your wing chun is based upon reacting to contact ?
    Unless I am attacking first, yes.
    I prefer contact as the opponent then tells me how to respond.
    My opponent shows me how to beat them.

    However, I have been thinking of taking up the approach your group seems to promote.
    I am going to consult a physic the next time I get into a fight.
    That should work just as well as having no "applications"
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

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